#133 Mingling Your Way to Great Conversations

Transcript of Interview

Find Your Voice, Change Your Life Podcast

Podcast Host: Dr. Doreen Downing

Free Guide to Fearless Speaking: Doreen7steps.com

Episode #133 Susan RoAne

“Mingling Your Way to Great Conversations”

(00:00) Doreen Downing: Hi, this is Dr. Doreen Downing, host of the Find Your Voice, Change Your Life podcast. I have a new friend that I’d like to introduce you to Susan Roane, and she’s a bestselling author and somebody that, during my early career as a speaker, I looked up to and she’s written a book. It’s How to Work a Room. 

What does that really mean? I want to go in and I want to be myself. I don’t want to just go in and do something manipulative. This is what Susan is going to be showing us today. That it’s about being yourself and being in a conversation, maybe with some intention, but we get to learn from her today.

One of the things, Susan, I like what you said in your bio—a Mingling Maven. I love that because being able to be comfortable with people in a room. I’m an introvert and shy, so it’s helped me to go, “Oh, it’s just mingling. I don’t have to go and put the spotlight on myself. I could just go and have conversations.” Small talk, as you called it. You’re also a business networking expert and a best-selling author. So, that’s a little intro to Susan today. 

Hi, Susan. 

(01:24) Susan RoAne: Well, hello, Doreen, and thank you for that. What I loved about why I trademarked Mingling Maven is I love alliteration.

(01:33) Doreen Downing: I do too. Yes. 

(01:37) Susan RoAne: But when I did it, people didn’t know what a Maven was, until Malcolm Gladwell wrote the Tipping Point. The idea of mingling, for our listeners, you just think of it as socializing, instead of “Let me get that top client”, and “Let me get that job lead.” If you just think about being nice to people and talking to people, it really puts it in the perspective of being just a social exchange instead of something like dollars coming over you. 

(02:10) Doreen Downing: Yes. One of the things that I know that I’ve learned as being an introvert is that I am more comfortable speaking one on one, and I’m curious about people, so it feels like having conversations is what networking is all about. Is that true?

(02:29) Susan RoAne: I was just talking to someone about this yesterday. Conversation is so essential. Back when I was writing—I think it was my third book, my conversation book—I went into the local—now, this may sound old fashioned for people—CD shop and the owner said to me something about conversation. 

I wanted to introduce someone who’d been in sales. He then opened up a retail shop and I interviewed him and I said, “How important is conversation to sales?” He said, “Conversation isn’t a part of sales. It’s the heart of it, and it’s the heart of everything. No relationship, whether it’s business or social, whether it’s with clients or friends or relatives, can come about if there isn’t an exchange that we call conversation. That’s how we get to know people.” 

(03:33) Doreen Downing: Yeah, and we need a voice in order to do that. That’s what this podcast is about. Find your voice so that you can change, make those kinds of changes in your life, those kinds of conversations that lead to change.

Well, I’ve got a curiosity like I always do at the very beginning. I’d like to hear a little bit because we are talking about voice and one of the ways that we first learned that we have a voice is when we’re really, really young in our families, we pop out and go “goo goo gaga.” And are they going “weee” back to us? Or are they busy? Are they neglectful? Are they punitive? 

So, if you could just dive a little bit back and just give us a snapshot of your early childhood relative to how you felt like you were seen and heard. 

(04:26) Susan RoAne: Well, I am a firstborn, seriously, a firstborn. My parents would be considered older. Now, it would be considered way too young. And so, they were happy to have me and they didn’t talk—I don’t remember any baby talk, but something different happened, Doreen. My brother was born and he didn’t talk at all for two and a half years. Everything was “fa,” the airplane, my father, the food, the whatever.

And then he contracted polio. This was before there was a Salk or Sabin vaccine. He almost died and mother lived at the hospital with him. And that changed for me. What was very interesting is that my local elementary school in Chicago, they knew about my brother and they knew mother was at the hospital and they allowed me to come to kindergarten early, just so I had a place to go. Now, I tell people I had to repeat kindergarten, but the truth is I didn’t flunk kindergarten. They let me in early the year before I should have gone, which when you think about a major school system doing that, it was really a very kind thing to do for my parents. 

I remember that my brother’s first sentence was this, he overheard the doctor say to my mother, if he doesn’t eat, we’ll have to feed him intravenously.

And I grew up knowing his first sentence was, “Please, Dr. Aries, I’ll eat. I don’t want any more intravenous-es.” That was his first sentence. My brother did end up being an attorney, of course, but he also was captain of University of Illinois’s college ball team. So, in my house, conversation was expected.

My grandfather was a wonderful storyteller, so was my mother, so were my cousins, so were my uncles. But on the other side of that were some people who were overshadowed because some people were more conversant, and I sometimes have to watch myself because I am a good storyteller, but I have to be mindful of doing something that includes other people to tell their stories. It’s called bringing people into the conversation. 

And I’ve been told I’m very good at it. Here’s a hint for those of us that are a little more, shall we say, loquacious. Always an insult, so I’ll have to pick another word. What you do is when you tell your stories and you’re talking to even if it’s three or four people, including everyone with your eye contact. Never direct a conversation to one person. 

And this is what people do. I’m going to say this. That to sometimes ignore women, they’ll direct the conversation to the male. Don’t do that. Include everyone, including if there’s a 12 year old standing there. Include people with eye contact, and then when they’re ready, they may feel more comfortable speaking up.

(07:41) Doreen Downing: Oh, that’s so powerful, Susan. The energy that we—and especially just those who are only listening and can’t see—you’ve got such beautiful radiant eyes, so you bring a lot of good energy through your eyes, and I feel like you looking at people makes them feel welcomed. 

You bring good energy, so just even without talking to them, just looking at them, the nonverbal energetic way. 

(08:10) Susan RoAne: Thank you. 

(08:11) Doreen Downing: It struck me that you—not only the kindness of the school to let you in, but then here you are even younger than everybody else, so you’re thrust into the very first school or social experience younger than everybody else is. I was thinking that might have been a way in which you felt like, “oh, I don’t belong,” but it feels like the opposite for you. You’ve found that you fit into this group that knew more than you, was older than you. I think I understand you a little bit better because the kindergarten room is a room, Susan, and you went into the room. So, I feel like you learned it very, very early in life. 

(08:53) Susan RoAne: Well, I learned it too well. So, I’m going to tell the story myself. When we moved in, of course, when you grow up with a brother who had polio, wears a brace on his leg, you have different sensibilities. Let me tell you how I think it relates to finding your voice. I was the older sister. 

I often had to speak up and that even happened at the campus at University of Illinois. I had to speak up on his behalf and get a hold of his pledge father and maybe tell him off or boss him around or something, but that is also something that came through as my years as a teacher. You speak up on behalf of other people. That came easily to me because that is what I had to do. 

But this is what happened to me in first grade. I loved first grade, actually, because I was there on my own and nobody had to let me in and Miss Kelly told my mother she would not double promote me to third grade and I’ll tell you why. She said Susan finishes her work but then she wanders over and talks to everybody in class. So, I dedicated my conversation book, What Do I Say Next, to Miss Kelly. I had a little intro written in the penmanship of a kid and it said, “You wouldn’t double promote me,” and then I wrote at the bottom, “And thank you. It turned into this book on conversation and I liked second grade anyway”. 

So, I didn’t get double promoted because I was the person, maybe because I had to be expected in my culture, expected in my family, and to say this, when you have a brother that’s in the hospital because of polio, you have to fend for yourself in many ways.

(10:38) Doreen Downing: Oh, yes. 

(10:39) Susan RoAne: I was staying with the grandparents, etc., where I really had to speak up. I couldn’t just disappear, and one set of grandparents made sure that I didn’t. I’ll tell you how smart my grandmother was. No formal education. I was a terrible eater then, and she would say, “Would you like to have your lunch? Oh, maybe we can have it in front of the television.” Well, guess who ate her lunch in front of the TV instead of the other set that said you cannot watch television while you eat? My grandmother was smart. What was more important? That I ate or didn’t eat? 

(11:18) Doreen Downing: Oh, yeah. Rather than say you could turn on the screen afterwards. There’s so much that I already am starting to put together like you’re a puzzle to me, and I love the way that you found your voice and how it relates to those early years. 

Thank you for pointing to some of those moments and especially this idea of you stepping into situations like kindergarten or a family that had this situation with your brother who had polio and this idea where you said, “Make sure you include everybody,” feels like that is also something that you learned in your family with your brother.

(12:00) Susan RoAne: No, I’m going to tell you how I learned this, and this is the truth, and to the audience, I hope you write this down. 

We would have family events, whether it was a family wedding. My mother was from Toronto, and the Toronto family would come. I would be 12, and my mother would say, “Okay, you talk to the Toronto family and make sure they’re comfortable.”

What a big job for a 12 year old! And I thought that was my job, and so I learned to communicate with the cousins and whoever. You know what’s interesting? I’m still in touch with some of the cousins all these years later. So, it ended up being something that I learned and how it translated into Working Room and one of the things that I wrote about it: I learned to be the welcomer. 

And for anybody walking into any room, going into any event—business, personal—this is the hint—I learned this also from Dr. Adele Scheele, who wrote it in an article—act like a host. You don’t have to be the party thrower, but the host welcomes you, the host tries to make you comfortable. The host, if they know someone, they’ll introduce you to other people. 

So, if you embrace that, let me be the host, let me be the greeter. If you’re in an organization and you’re uncomfortable at events, sign up on the greeting committee. Then that’s your job to greet people, you’ll meet everyone and then you’ll be able to introduce them to each other. It’s the 10,000 hours of practice. 

You will meet people; you’ll get better at it. Everything that we do that we do longer in practice, whether it’s playing a guitar or baking a recipe—well, I never got good at that, so scratch that idea—you’ll get better at it and you’ll get more comfortable.

And when you see that other people respond to you, because you’re reaching out to them and making them feel welcome, you’re going to feel so good about yourself, you’re going to do that more. 

(14:08) Doreen Downing: I love it. Two things, what you just said about practice, but also for those people who are afraid of speaking, maybe not even on a stage, but just shy and trying to start a conversation with somebody, this taking on “Hello,” feels like such a good way to feel like you have a voice. “Hello.” 

(14:32) Susan RoAne: Well, here’s another, let me give you a couple hints from How to Work a Room. Every time I give this as a presentation, I do an interactive—it’s not role modeling because I hate role modeling—it’s actually doing the thing, but here’s what we do is we debrief, and what everyone says that makes it easy to go over to people—and I want you to remember this, and it’s what you said, Dr. Doreen—is eye contact and a smile. 

So, if you look at someone and smile, you’re inviting them to come over and say hello because we don’t go over to the person that has a face that looks like they have bunion problems and go, “Oh, that’s a mean looking person I want to meet.”

We are inclined to go to the person that has a pleasant look and welcoming look, eye contact, and a smile. Everyone has said for 40 years that I’ve been doing this as a presentation. That’s what makes people feel welcome and that you are open to them. 

(15:40) Doreen Downing: Lovely. I also have some tips about the eyes because I actually talk about presence. What I feel about you is that—yes, your eyes and your smile but Susan, your heart is what’s smiling and that feels like the energy that radiates from you because people could have open eyes and a smile, but don’t they say the eyes are the windows of the soul. So, that to me feels like, oh, that you’re able to have the smile in your heart. 

(16:16) Susan RoAne: Thank you for that, and I’ve written about this, and it’s a word I loved, and I heard it first applied I think it was to Pope John the 23rd—loving kindness. 

(16:26) Doreen Downing: Yes. 

(16:27) Susan RoAne: And the loving kindness comes through his eyes, and you can see that in certain people, but thank you for saying that. 

(16:35) Doreen Downing: Yes. 

(16:35) Susan RoAne: If what we do and say is not heartfelt, then it shows that we’re not telling our truth or being our truthful self.

(16:48) Doreen Downing: That’s pretty profound there. Thank you. 

(16:51) Susan RoAne: Oh, my God. I’m profound. I do have to say this about the eyes because I wanted to say it. I got up this morning, made sure I put on the good mascara, just wanted to let you know. 

(17:04) Doreen Downing: It’s working. It’s working. Well, I’m going to take a quick break and get back to you so we can have some more fun dancing around these ideas and wise comments.

(17:26) Doreen Downing: Hi, we’re back with Susan RoAne, my friend who’s entertaining us and not only giving us tips, but actually telling us some good ways in which we can be communicators, use our voice, and make really positive connections with other people. So, we’re back, Susan. What are you thinking now? I’ve got lots of questions, but let’s just give you the floor and see what comes. 

(17:54) Susan RoAne: To prepare everyone—I’m a former school teacher. You can take the teacher out of the classroom, but you can never take the classroom out of the teacher—what I’d like to do is give you some ideas so that you can walk into any gathering and feel comfortable and confident.

One is having your own self-introduction prepared, you won’t be going into rooms where someone will be introducing you around generally, but when you know what you want to say about yourself, it gives you the confidence to introduce yourself to other people or to participate in a conversation. 

But I’m going to tell you what the introduction is. It is not the up shucking of an elevator speech. You shouldn’t even do it in an elevator. It’s not 30 seconds about you when you’re at an event. That’s a social event. It’s a seven-to-nine-second pleasantry. It’s a greeting. Why I said seven to nine seconds, one day I decided to look up my own book. They did research that after nine seconds, eye contact is considered a glare. So, seven to nine seconds. 

And by the way, really? Do you want to go on and on about yourself for 30 seconds while someone has a beverage in one hand and perhaps an hors d’oeuvre in another? No, seven to nine seconds. But in that, you also link who you are to the event because you have to help people, and if you give context for why you’re there, whether it’s a fundraiser for leukemia society, or a neighbor’s daughter’s wedding, you help them figure out what to say to you. So, you link who you are to why you’re at that event. 

Then, the third tip is—and I learned this from Patricia Fripp, who Doreen met with me when we met earlier this year. Oh, last, it was last year—if it’s a business event, instead of giving your title, give the benefit of what you do. When you give people the benefit—I try to put the right roof over people’s heads—what does that mean? Oh, I am in real estate. If you give the benefit of what you do, you give people enough information that they can ask a question and feel they’ve started the conversation.

(20:27) Doreen Downing: The way you give tips, it’s almost like you’re saying, “Okay, here it is.” I love watching you give tips here. So, in terms of the roof and the real estate it is like, “I help people find their place where they feel their sanctuary.” What would you say then?

(20:47) Susan RoAne: Well, if it’s someone who’s in real estate, it’s like finding the right house. Semi psychologists, what they deal with in people’s worst, most tense time, but it’s like I could say my name or I’m an author, I’m a speaker. I don’t do that. Oh, I turn people into Mingling Mavens because that gives someone, “What does that mean?” Then I could say—

(21:11) Doreen Downing: Aha. I get it. I get what you’re saying. Okay. 

(21:15) Susan RoAne: You know what? Here’s the other thing. You could be really serious about it, but if you can find a lighthearted way to say it with a smile, that makes it more inviting and that makes you more interesting and welcoming.

(21:31) Doreen Downing: Okay, so I’m going to try it right now. Let’s play with me. So, if I say—in how many seconds—”I help people find their voice.” 

(21:41) Susan RoAne: Yes, and I might say, “Tell me what that means. Did they lose it? Because I’ve lost my voice many times.” 

(21:47) Doreen Downing: Alright, that works then. Okay. I just didn’t know if that—I see it could go in many, many directions.

(21:56) Susan RoAne: And it’s okay because when you say help people find the voice that has even so many directions that someone could pick it up in any number of ways, and then you get to say specifically how you do that.

(22:13) Doreen Downing: But then they get to, like you’re saying, they pick the thing that matters to them. Not me trying to figure out what matters to them and say something that’s going to hook them. It’s more an opening to “Who knows?” 

I also love that it’s so in the moment. You have to be really present too if you’re going to say hello. This is in one sentence and then wait because you don’t know what’s going to come back and then you’re off and running in conversation.

(22:45) Susan RoAne: May I give another tip? People think this is weird, but I think it’s brilliant because it actually happened to me. Sometimes when we go to events, and they’re like these receptions and they have food tables—this is the Susan RoAne hint—start at the dessert table. I’ll tell you why.

When people are standing around with a mini Bundt cake or a chocolate chip cookie or a little mini eclair, people talk to people who are eating fattening foods that are delicious. You don’t even have to start with your name. You can say, “Oh, that looks really good. Is it as good as it looks from here? Oh, I wonder how many calories it has?” 

You can start talking about other things and then get into your name. I always often say—and please, please don’t take this as an offense if you’re a vegetarian—I will often say, “I never met many interesting people at the cut up vegetable table.” 

What can you do that will get you to the people that are the most open? And here’s where it goes down to what we all grew up with, with the grandmothers that served a lot of food. They were wise because people talk about food. That’s why people bring food, donuts, or munchies to a business meeting. Because you give people something to talk about before they have to talk about the issue at hand.

(24:18) Doreen Downing: Okay. I feel like I’m opening your book and I’m learning as we go today and people are probably really—you’re speaking of food—hungry for more. 

(24:30) Susan RoAne: Oh, I love it. And I love to play on some words. Here’s the other thing. When you hear someone say something that’s funny, that’s wise, that makes you smile, be sure to tell them.

We sometimes find people who say anything and we never say to them, “That’s really funny. Oh, that’s really smart.” I’m not dumber if I tell someone they’re smart. We somehow think acknowledging someone else’s, whatever it is, detracts from us. It doesn’t. It shows, if someone says something funny and you get it, shows you have a sense of humor. And if you tell someone, “What a good sense of humor you have,” there was research done years ago, where people want to be told that they have a sense of humor. In fact, in this research, they’d rather admit that they were not sexually good, rather than that they didn’t have a good sense of humor. 

So, if you want to make a friend for life, acknowledge what they say that’s funny and wise and makes you smile. I think people respond to that. 

(25:47) Doreen Downing: Oh, that’s lovely. I’m thinking that people—and this will be something we could talk about here, is when somebody has acknowledged you, and you push it away, you don’t receive it, you don’t feel the gratitude that somebody has seen you and acknowledge you, and you minimize it or actually minimize yourself. What about something like that, Susan? 

(26:16) Susan RoAne: Oh, I’m so glad you said that because I have two things for that. A lot of us deflect compliments. We don’t know how to take it. So, if you’re one of the people that deflects compliments, believe me, you’re not alone. But this is the lesson we have to learn. 

My late mother-in-law, I was taking a sewing class—don’t even ask why—but I made a skirt and then she had to remake it and I was wearing it to school, teaching. She said to me, if you get a compliment, don’t tell them, “My mother-in-law had to redo the seams.” Here’s what you say, she said, “Big smile and you just say, ‘Thank you.'” 

And it’s so hard to do but that is something that I learned later when I was writing Secrets of Savvy Networking, one of the people I interviewed who was a CEO of a company said this, “When someone gives us a compliment: that was a great report. That was a terrific speech. Oh, I was really impressed with whatever,” and you deflect, what you’re doing is insulting their assessment, which you don’t want to do. So, deflection can be construed as an insult and actually a challenge to their compliment and acknowledgement. That helped me learn to say thank you more. 

(27:45) Doreen Downing: Yes. Oh, I love it. When I was noticing your bright eyes and saying things like that to you and you received it, and not only that, but you also opened your eyes wider and it feels like that’s a good model of how to—you’re a good model of how to receive acknowledgement and appreciation.

(28:06) Susan RoAne: Well, here’s another thing. I had a dear friend, and I liked her because she was littler than I was, and that was cool. I’m 4 ’11 and I remember I would hang out with Arlene and I remember she said something and I said to her, “You know what? I really enjoyed being with you. You’re such a good conversationalist and I love the fact that you are such an at-ease talker.” And she looked at me and said, “Oh, Susan, I only talk a lot when I’m with you.” 

(28:39) Doreen Downing: Oh, yeah. 

(28:41) Susan RoAne: And I took that as a compliment. I listened to her so she spoke more. But her culture was very much one of deflection, and that for women. I thought, my goal is to make people so comfortable that they’ll talk more with me than any other people in their life. And I think that that’s been good. 

The other thing is, when I hear a good line, I will stop and say, “Oh my god, that is so funny.” And by the way, no one is ever insulted when you do this. If you say, “That was so funny. Do you mind if I write this down?” 

(29:21) Doreen Downing: I was just going there. I was just going to go there. Boy, I’m going to write that one down.

(29:29) Susan RoAne: You’d be surprised how many people say really funny things and no one ever says, no one laughs, no one says it’s funny. So, I’ll give you an example. I made the mistake of saying out loud, “I got four long gowns in my closet. When am I ever going to wear one again?” Literally two weeks later, I get invitations to two formal long gown weddings.

So, I do something dumb like go into my closet to try them to see if they still fit, and lo and behold, it was like trying on a tourniquet. And I said to one of my friends, “Oh my god, I tried on my two long gowns and they don’t fit.” And she said, “Sew them together and make one gown that fits.” Well, I think it’s hysterical and I’ve said it to people and they laugh. Last night, because she’s in New York, I sent her an email saying my friends love what you said and think you’re so funny. We need to reinforce and remember and repeat. 

(30:37) Doreen Downing: Yes. Thank you. Well, I’m sure that today, people are, hopefully, all of you are taking notes because there are so many tips and wise words from Susan. Since we’re coming to the end here, would you tell people how they can find you? 

(30:56) Susan RoAne: Okay. Well, you can still find me on Twitter and I’m never calling it X, @SusanRoAne, and I’ll spell it for you: S-U-S-A-N-R-O-A-N-E, where I do a couple of tweets a day. I also just got involved with—I forget the new one that Instagram has out—but you can also find me at www.susanroane.com and if you have a burning question, email me. I will answer it. There’s no point in thinking, “Oh, I didn’t think of it when, well, maybe I need to find out.” Email me: susan@susanroane.com and I promise I will answer but do say that you heard me on Doreen’s podcast, Finding Your Voice, and you will hear from me within 24 hours.

(32:00) Doreen Downing: Well, that’s generous and thank you. It seems like it’s part of not only what you do in a room, but what you do over email, that the person has said hello, and you’re saying hello right away back, so that’s wonderful. 

One more opportunity here, you might say, just to give you the microphone to say, well, what comes to close for you? 

(32:30) Susan RoAne: What comes to close. Okay, I will say this. If anyone tries to shush you and quiet you, that’s the person—unless you’re married to them or gave birth to them or they gave birth to you—to clean out of your network. We have to clean out our networks because there’s an old saying, “What’s let go of, gives room for what’s to become.”

Don’t let people shush you. Don’t let people intimidate you to be quiet because you will have then traded off your brilliance, your kindness, your thoughtfulness to someone that’s none of the above.

Be who you are. Say what you have to. There’s a way to say things. I learned that as a teacher. You’re better off saying things the way people can hear them than saying them the way you want to say them. And how I know this is I used to do parent-teacher conferences and I wanted to say, your kid’s a horrible, terrible pain in the ass, but I couldn’t say that.

So, I’d say, “There’s so much potential that I hope we can find.” Say things in a way people can hear them but say them. And if you have someone in your life that you disagree with, here’s what I learned, you can—in an un-disagreeable, calm way, but with no smile on your face—say, “That’s not the way I see it.” That way you will have registered that you don’t agree, and you won’t have been silent and walk away going, “Why did I let that schmo say that?” You will say, “That’s not how I see it,” and you will have spoken up, and that will be the beginning, and you’ll do more of it. 

(34:23) Doreen Downing: Yes, well, that’s what we’re encouraging people to do is to find their voice and speak up. Thank you, Susan. 

(34:31) Susan RoAne: Well, thank you. This has been a delight. And you reminded me of pre-kindergarten and the fact that I wasn’t held back. I was just there for extra time. 

(34:41) Doreen Downing: Yeah and you learned how to enter a foreign-type room and make a life right from the beginning. 

(34:51) Susan RoAne: Thank you. Thank you, Doreen. 

(34:52) Doreen Downing: U-huh. Bye bye.