#169 Intrusive Thoughts, Anxiety, & the Journey to Everyday Bravery

Transcript of Interview

Find Your Voice, Change Your Life Podcast

Podcast Host: Dr. Doreen Downing

Free Guide to Fearless Speaking: Doreen7steps.com

Episode #169 Renee Zukin

“Intrusive Thoughts, Anxiety, & the Journey to Everyday Bravery”

 

(00:00) Doreen Downing: Hi, welcome to Find Your Voice, Change Your Life. This is a podcast that I host. I’m Dr. Doreen Downing, psychologist. Being a psychologist gives me a lot of curiosity about what’s behind the success people have today. They usually don’t just pop out all successful, making lots of contributions to the world—except for probably just being beautiful little babies. That’s already a huge contribution.

Today I get to interview a good friend of mine, Renee Zukin. Hi Renee.

(00:46) Renee Zukin: Hi, Dr. Doreen. It’s so good to be here with you.

(00:50) Doreen Downing: Wonderful. I’d like to read a bio so that people get a frame for what we’ll be talking about, or at least the backstory.

Renee Zukin is an author, educator, coach, and mental health advocate doing the inner work to see outer change. She has more than 20 years of experience in education, writing, and entrepreneurship, and has studied multiple psychological and healing modalities that have sustained her and supported her students and clients alike.

Renee is passionate about cultivating a safe space for others to use the written word as a tool for self-transformation and empowerment. Today we get to introduce you to her book, Every Day I’m Brave: Cultivating Resilience to Gain Freedom from Fear, which was released on August 8. By the time you’re watching this episode, it will already be available. There was a launch party, but we are still celebrating month after month, because good information and good healing are always out there, and we always want access to them. Thanks, Renee, for making this available to us.

(02:17) Renee Zukin: Absolutely, it’s an honor and a pleasure. It’s been a labor of love to write the book, to tell my story, and to offer it as a way for others to find a way through their fear.

(02:35) Doreen Downing: The word you just used really touched me, the offering of it. To have our lives, then bring it out, and have our hands open like this, offering it. Whew, that really touched me.

(02:56) Renee Zukin: Thank you for that. One of the things that kept me going through the process was the continual reminder that it’s a way for me to show up in service.

(03:08) Doreen Downing: Before you decided to show up in service, you showed up in a family situation. That’s something listeners hear right away—where were you born, what was your family situation? For those of us who’ve done deep transformational work, there’s often deep pain we’ve had to endure or find our way through. Whatever you can say about snapshots of that early life.

(03:47) Renee Zukin: Sure. I think I had a pretty good early life. I was born in Detroit and lived there with my family. At the age of nine, we moved from Detroit, a big metro city, to Iowa. It was a culture shock and a definite shift for me as a kid.

It gave me a sense of adventure while I carried the grief and loss of leaving my friends, my family, everybody I knew. Then came a pretty standard eighties upbringing. I talk about different things throughout my life that brought me to where I am today. One thing that has always been present is a visceral sense of fear. Even though I was adventurous and fun-loving, some things caused me a lot of fear, and I didn’t know how to interact with that—as a kid, as a teenager, and into adulthood.

(05:24) Doreen Downing: Do we ever? Do we, as kids, get a workbook—“Here, kid, learn how to be emotionally resilient, how to navigate”? Before you go much further, I’m curious, what was the circumstance of that move to Iowa?

(05:45) Renee Zukin: My dad worked for an automotive company in Detroit, and he got a promotion. They were opening up a new plant in Iowa City and we said, “Okay, this here’s an opportunity.” It was quite an experience. I’ve left and come back a couple of times, but I’ve managed to call Iowa City home for the last 20 years.

(06:12) Doreen Downing: The birth order—where are you on the birth?

(06:15) Renee Zukin: I’m the baby, the youngest of three. I have two older brothers.

(06:23) Doreen Downing: That in itself says a lot. I’ve heard people talk about having older brothers, in both the good and positive ways. Already it seems like what I’m hearing from you is that there’s both the loss you experienced as well as an opportunity. You know that whole idea about the Chinese character that says the yin yang. Well, there’s both, and the Chinese character itself has opportunity or danger. I think the two combined make something. It’s been a while since I thought about that, because through the years of being somebody who loves transformation and inspiration, that stood out to me.

So, Iowa girl. All right. Early school—you said fear, you remember fear being something that was challenging. And we both laughed that of course there isn’t a handbook for that. But do you feel like you had more of a sensitive nature? Something about being?

(07:45) Renee Zukin: Yes, I certainly feel like I was a sensitive child, in the sense of just really… even still today, I just have a lot of awareness. I’m constantly aware of all the input. That can obviously get overwhelming.

One of the things I now understand about my childhood that I didn’t then—I was diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder in my thirties. What I realized looking back is a lot of the challenges and fears I had as a child were from these intrusive thoughts. I didn’t know how to name it.

What we see as OCD out in mainstream media is not really what it is. Yes, there’s liking things organized and neat, yes, there’s hand washing, and different people have different things. But the intrusive thoughts are really the hallmark.

Until the inner workings started coming out in ways that other people could see, it wasn’t obvious. OCD has something called “latching,” and in my thirties it latched onto food safety. All of a sudden, I kept getting intrusive thoughts that what I was about to eat wasn’t safe.

(09:25) Doreen Downing: Oh, this is important. This is very important for me because I do have a situation with a friend who’s got a child, and I’ll be able to at least refer to this as perhaps a condition that has a name. Yes. Wow. Because you’re right—OCD feels like, oh, you can’t go across a crack on a sidewalk or something. Right. So the intrusive thoughts… in your own explorations of intrusive thoughts, and looking back on the history of it—or just maybe theoretically—are intrusive thoughts a way to avoid something else?

(10:15) Renee Zukin: Not necessarily. I suppose, like in parts work, these parts of you are keeping you safe. But in fact, it really feels the opposite. Even though there can be a sense of safety, what I learned in the cognitive behavior therapy work I did is that these thoughts are just thoughts. It’s the brain doing its thing, and we don’t have to attach to it. It doesn’t mean anything about who we are or what we need to do because we’ve had this thought.

That was something I certainly didn’t understand before diagnosis. Unless you’re already doing some sort of mindfulness work or cognitive behavior therapy, it’s just not something people talk about. For me, those intrusive thoughts were really scary.

When I was little, I chalked it up to having a vivid imagination—which is also true. A lot of creatives do. But there’s a real different element, because there’s an automatic fear response to the thought. Until you do the rituals—wash your hands so many times or turn the knobs so many times—you can’t dampen that very physical, visceral anxiety and panic that comes with the thought.

(11:59) Doreen Downing: Are people born with that tendency for the mind to operate that way?

(12:06) Renee Zukin: There is a genetic component to it that I’ve learned a little bit about. But with anything genetic, there’s an on-off switch. There are ways in which, for a lot of things, yes, there is a predisposition.

If I look back at different people in my family lineage or hear other people talking, who have it and then look back at their parents, I think, “Oh, this makes sense.” Some of it is just habit, practice habits that you learn. My dad was always really neat, and he made sure we always kept our room clean. That’s the outer piece of it. But what matters more is the response to the need, the urge, and the thought. So yes, it’s interesting.

(13:06) Doreen Downing: The idea of the urge and the thought and then the fear—that’s more the “I better not,” or “I shouldn’t.” Especially when you talked about food. Before we go deeper into how you manage or navigate, or how listeners today can learn to go within and see that it’s an inside job—because from what I read when I introduced you—I have so many questions, but I need to take a quick break. We’ll be right back.

(13:47) Renee Zukin: Great.

(13:50) Doreen Downing: Hi, we’re back with Renee Zukin, who’s talking to us about a condition. I’m just going to make it nice and easy and call it intrusive thoughts. We don’t have to give it a diagnosis, although Renee has just written a book about being brave. That’s going to be on the bookshelves and you’ll be able to get it.

Renee, is it called Be Brave? Is that the title?

Renee Zukin: Every Day I’m Brave.

Doreen Downing: Every Day I’m Brave. Yes. I just know “brave” is the word that relates to me and is so inspiring. Maybe that’s a good place to start. If every day you’re brave, how did you even know? What is brave—how did that come to you?

(14:38) Renee Zukin: Yeah, it’s a great question. One of the first things I introduce in the book is that concept. For me, as I was dealing with a lot of anxiety, my world was really small. I was too afraid to travel. Food was an issue. I was working, raising my kids. Life was busy, but also very small.

My partner at the time traveled worldwide for work. He was always off doing things. I’d look around and see my friends go on girls’ trips, hopping on planes to do fun things. And I would constantly be in comparison, looking at other people doing these brave things. It got to a point where I was upset about it. And I thought, “You know what? I’m brave because I got out of bed today.”

(15:40) Renee Zukin: I’m brave because I showed up to work even though I was completely burned out. This perspective really dawned on me—that bravery is a spectrum, and what’s brave for one person is totally different for somebody else. We all hold fear of some kind. So, I didn’t have to compare myself anymore.

(16:06) Doreen Downing: I thought about that—looking at somebody traveling. Why did they call that brave? You were comparing yourself and saying, “I can’t do that.” But then one day you went, aha, this one step is really brave. That feels so empowering, to have come to that realization.

(16:29) Renee Zukin: Yeah, it really was. And it became a mantra for me. It helped me take braver steps into the future and create a life I really wanted, instead of letting fear call the shots all the time. Even that self-comparison—what’s brave for me one minute might not be the next day. I could try again tomorrow. So it really allowed me to develop a lot of self-compassion.

(17:05) Doreen Downing: I love the idea also that it’s every day. Just like “someday”—right? And you also said, because I wasn’t yesterday doesn’t mean I can’t be today. That mantra feels so rich.

Well, the podcast is about finding your voice. So maybe we could shift into how you think about that idea of having a voice or not having a voice.

(17:38) Renee Zukin: For me, having a writing voice, having a speaking voice, getting to do this work has always been something I longed to do. I didn’t know if I could, because of all these fears and the way they were impacting me. I didn’t really see a path forward into this kind of leadership and this kind of work. I would feel like, “I don’t know how to move forward. People are going to know that I’m really just anxious, or I’m a mess. How do I show up as a leader when I’m so bogged down by anxiety, fear, self-doubt, imposter syndrome?”

That took some work. It took me being committed to the process, deciding that my message, my voice, what I can offer has meaning, is valuable, and that I am worthy of doing this inner work. Not just to show up in service, but to express my full self and to show up authentically.

(19:12) Doreen Downing: Yes.

(19:13) Renee Zukin: That wasn’t easy. I was hiding quite a bit. As I gained mentors, put more of my work out in the world, led programs, worked with students and clients—at each level I learned something new, grew in different ways, and turned that into an offering for somebody else on the path. We’re all on a similar path, trying to know who we are, reclaim our voices, and speak our truth.

It’s so important to do it, even if just for ourselves and not for anybody else. That alone is reason enough.

(20:07) Doreen Downing: I’m so glad you said that. For people listening today, it encourages them that they don’t have to get out and write a book or be of service to others. They can do their own journey. That’s huge and brave.

Another question I have, and this is more about the book itself—because you are so committed to this inner work, to full expression, whatever that looks like for each person—whether it’s through a book or just at a family dinner table. It’s about feeling connected to yourself and what you want to say, not holding back, and being brave.

In the book itself, do you present specific things, or techniques, that help people find themselves, which means finding their voice?

(21:24) Renee Zukin: Yeah, absolutely. Each chapter is a piece of the story and what I learned. At the end of each chapter, there are journal prompts for the reader to think about the lessons and themes of that chapter, how it relates to them, and what they can take away from it. Every chapter has ways to really reflect on the lessons, so they can run along the journey right beside me. I like the feeling that we are on this journey together—so let’s go through it.

(22:16) Doreen Downing: Wow. By giving your story and then having a reflection at the end, it’s like saying, “Here, I’m not going anywhere. I’ll stay with you as you consider how this impacts you. I’ll hold your hand or just be here with you while you do that. And when you’re ready for the next chapter, I’ll still be here.”

I like the feeling of it being paced according to the reader and their needs. There isn’t this sense of, Let’s get through this and get to the end. It’s a process. That’s what I get.

(23:05) Renee Zukin: And you’re not fixed by the end. One of the biggest messages I want to drive home is that we don’t have to be “fixed” to keep moving forward, to do the things we want to do, and to speak the truth we embody. Whether, like you said, it’s at the dinner table with a family member or on a stage at a TEDx talk—or anywhere in between.

(23:40) Doreen Downing: And even what I’m getting from you today—privately, with yourself—your own inner stage, if we imagine it that way. Listening to yourself, being with yourself. A big, beautiful breath. I share that with you.

We’re coming to an end, and I always like to open up the moment to see what wants to move through you as we close our conversation. You already took your full breath.

(24:21) Renee Zukin: I want to leave anybody listening with the value of the awareness that you are not your thoughts. The stories we may have been telling ourselves about who we are and who we can become are things we can rewrite if we choose. The invitation is to be willing to be curious about what’s possible for you. What do you really want? And how can you take just the tiniest step forward toward that?

(25:13) Doreen Downing: Beautiful. So gentle.

(25:15) Renee Zukin: Thank you.

(25:16) Doreen Downing: Thank you so much for today.

(25:19) Renee Zukin: It’s an honor and a pleasure. Thank you.