#144 The Transformative Power of Being Heard

Transcript of Interview

Find Your Voice, Change Your Life Podcast

Podcast Host: Dr. Doreen Downing

Free Guide to Fearless Speaking: Doreen7steps.com

Episode #144 Randall Alifano

“The Transformative Power of Being Heard”

(00:00) Doreen Downing: Hi, this is Dr. Doreen Downing, host of the Find Your Voice, Change Your Life podcast. Today, I get to have a conversation with Dr. Randall Alifano, and I have to say that he and I mistakenly got on last week, and I’ve already started this conversation, and I’ve been really thrilled to feel like I’ve met somebody that understands inner depth, presence, all of what it takes to live a life more deeply and with awareness. I’m excited about learning how he learned all about that in his own journey. Hi, Randall. 

(00:46) Randall Alifano: Hi, Doreen. That was lovely to hear. Say more. 

(00:49) Doreen Downing: Okay. Yes. Well, we are going to say more but let me introduce you because I do have a short bio here. Randall Alifano has a PhD in Clinical Psychology and is an ordained minister with over 40 years of integrating psychology and spirituality in his private practice.

He’s worked with a diverse group of people in various agencies. It included counseling battered women, running groups for violent men, helping in a residential care facility for the elderly, guiding mistreated children in a residential care home, and designing a domestic violence program at the Center for Special Problems.

Dr. Alifano draws on his wealth of experience to provide practical guidance on how to improve our ability to listen with presence, empathy, and curiosity, not only with others, but also with ourselves. Concrete examples are what he gives in his book, Listening in the Raw, and it can help deepen our relationships, enhance our personal growth and end our accepted state of isolation.

Dr. Alifano is also a drummer and loves cooking large pots of his grandma’s famous Bolognese sauce. Yum. I added the yum.

So, let me come back to you here and get in the same room as you. Here we are, so hello, hi. How was that listening to it read back to you? 

(02:45) Randall Alifano: It was actually interesting. I thought, well, that’s not a bad resume. 

(02:49) Doreen Downing: Yes, well, there was more. I cut it a little bit because I didn’t want to take up half of our show because people will, in the show notes, have some links to you, and where they can find out more, and where they could get your book.

(03:04) Randall Alifano: Great. 

(03:05) Doreen Downing: What I do, first of all, besides just open up the space for possibility here, and who knows, because it’s an unscripted conversation. It’s in the moment. We are both listening to each other. It’s just not a platform where I give you a microphone and you do a speech. That’s what people love when listening to this podcast.

Thank you listeners for being here today. I like to start with early life. That’s our business as psychologists anyway, to get really curious. What were some of those and especially, since we’re talking in this podcast is about finding your voice, when we pop out, we have our potential and sometimes it’s nourished and sometimes it’s squashed. 

I don’t know what your story is, so I’m opening up the space. Tell us a little bit about you coming into this world and what that was like. 

(04:07) Randall Alifano: That’s a good question. When I read the title of your podcast, Finding Your Voice, the first thought in my head was that it’s interesting.

I think I found my voice by listening with my ears. Mostly because as a New York Italian, every Sunday, all the family, the extended family would get together. Even as a young child, I would find myself sitting at the table, wondering why everybody was talking, nobody was asking questions, nobody really seemed curious about what Uncle Jen just said. 

They all seemed very invested in interrupting and saying what they had to say, and it seemed cacophonous to me, like it was chaos. I didn’t feel any genuine contact in all the verbiage that was going around.

That made me feel alone, and I started believing they were equally alone. They just weren’t dropping into it, so they just kept on talking, hoping someone would listen to them because they were clearly aching for someone to hear them. But they didn’t know how to sit back and listen, as you quite beautifully said, with curiosity.

“Why do you think he did that thing?” “Uncle Jen, say more about…” Really want to get to know what you’re talking about. They just didn’t go there. It was literally painful for me to watch it. 

(05:26) Doreen Downing: I’m already in that scene. I’m at that dinner table with you and feeling what that must have felt like for you. That’s part of what empathy is about in our work anyway. But this part is what is typical when we think about Italian families, right? Just the talking, talking, talking. What a great place to learn about how people don’t listen. 

So, how did that show up then, when you went to school, in your peer group, and as you were moving into this educational system that we have, where teachers don’t really listen unless we get a good one? 

(06:05) Randall Alifano: Yes, indeed. Even in high school, I started asking friends questions. What was it like that your mom said that to you? Because I was genuinely curious about what their experience was like. Then I would keep on asking questions until I had a sense that I understood from the inside out what it was like for that person, whose mother or father or brother, whoever did that thing, or didn’t do that thing. 

Then I would notice, again, even in high school, that when I followed my curiosity, I felt a real intimate connection with that person. Their experience could have been my experience. If I had been spoken to by mom like that, I would probably feel very similar to you. Then it wasn’t that person in me, it was in us. 

(06:53) Doreen Downing: Yes. 

(06:54) Randall Alifano: And they felt it too, of course. I thought, “Oh, that’s the answer.” Ask questions, be really curious, and who they are really shows up.

They have a chance to really speak their mind. Not pushing out their voice. Just relaxing, dropping in, and feeling what they really want to say, and then we were connected. 

(07:15) Doreen Downing: You’ve just painted a picture of a perfect family. 

(07:20) Randall Alifano: Yes. 

(07:20) Doreen Downing: You have parents who have the little one or little ones growing. Just a quick question. Did you have brothers and sisters? 

(07:28) Randall Alifano: Two older brothers. 

(07:29) Doreen Downing: In terms of what they were learning and how they treated you, are there any stories or memories you have about that you could share? 

(07:37) Randall Alifano: Yes, not listening. My older brother was 8 years older, so he felt pretty far away. 

(07:44) Doreen Downing: Yes. 

(07:45) Randall Alifano: My next oldest brother, 2 years older, we didn’t get along that well. We were just wired quite differently, so there weren’t conversations like brother to brother where it felt like a real connection. It was that feeling, that lack of connection with, not only my brothers, but everybody, the whole family, that I felt a longing for something different. I think is the key to it. 

I couldn’t cover that longing up with other things like pushing my voice, trying to get someone to listen just to me. I felt really compelled to change the narrative, I guess. 

(08:26) Doreen Downing: Well, that makes me curious. I get that there you are in an environment that is not helping you find your voice and express yourself yet. I also hear the longing. Is that longing something that’s in all of us? Do you believe or how come you had such a longing? How do you explain that? 

(08:54) Randall Alifano: Well, to your first question, yes, I absolutely believe. After 40 years in private practice, clearly, it’s every human being that I’ve had the privilege to make contact with, they’re aching, longing to be heard.

Not just the superficial, “How did the 49ers do this weekend,” but deep down and across the board, when they would start to speak and they would get that I was genuinely curious about who they were—I was far less curious about diagnosing, I was far more curious about “What’s it like for you?”— their voice opened up. They found a place where their voice was not only welcomed, but really, really wanted to be heard.

And that gave me a voice. Then I could really show up in that “Us” connection for what it was like to be so close to them in what they were talking about. Again, the “I” and “You” started to become more like “Us”. We were traveling, like with a client or one of my children, we’re traveling the road of their life.

They’re no longer beseeching someone, “Please listen to me.” It was, “Oh yes. Oh, and then, you know what happened then?” There was a freedom to talk. 

(10:13) Doreen Downing: Beautiful. Yes, it feels like you and I find that connection energetically, where we are together in the exploration of the now.

But I do want to go back to my other question. Yes, all of us are little babies popping out. It’s naturally human to want to be seen and heard. “Me, me, me. Pay attention.” The developmental phase. I don’t know which year we are and it’s all that theoretical stuff. 

But still Randall, I’m a little curious about what helped you tap into that. How did you want to have more and not just go, “Oh, okay, this is the way it is.” 

(11:00) Randall Alifano: That’s a really good question. I’m not sure. I feel like asking you the same question. I think what happened, my best guess is that it’s how I came onto the planet. I was hardwired for this. But there are moments, especially with my mom, where I expected her to respond the way people typically did and instead she did what I like to call “empathically surrendered,” where instead of going with the typical narrative of, “Oh, Randall, why dot dot dot.” 

You could just see that she dropped into her belly, got that I was going through something, and instead of taking the easy fruit, she would ask questions or she would direct me in a way that I thought, “You’re really right here.” And, I still remember these experiences like they were yesterday because they were so meaningful to me. It makes me want to cry. Just remembering. 

(11:52) Doreen Downing: Me too. Yes. I’m with you. 

(11:55) Randall Alifano: There was a time when I was, I think, 7 years old. I read about this in the book and somehow, I had turned myself around in bed. And woke up with my head down near my toes and the bed was tucked in tight, so I woke up in panic, in darkness, not able to get out, and I started screaming.

My older brother called my mom. My mom came up, turned the covers down. I remember, again, like it was yesterday thinking, “Oh, here comes the teasing, the put downs, you idiot, you look what you did.” I looked into her eyes with a lot of fear, and I could just see she dropped it, and she said, “Oh, my gosh, that must have been so frightening.” 

I just remember wrapping my arms around her. She just got what it was like for me and she answered that longing you’re speaking of. I’m going to get out of my old habits and show up for where you are right here, and that meant the world to me. 

(12:55) Doreen Downing: Wow. What a gift. 

(12:57) Randall Alifano: What a gift. 

(12:58) Doreen Downing: Powerful gift that in that moment impacted you in such a way it really planted the, “Oh, I know that there’s a space for this somewhere inside of me, and it didn’t exist in this life I’m living, and I just have to find out how to get back to it.” 

(13:16) Randall Alifano: Yes. Can I tell another story? 

(13:18) Doreen Downing: Yes. 

(13:19) Randall Alifano: This is another example I use in the book where I like to talk about how when your child is having a nightmare and they start screaming in the middle of the night and you go into the room. As a parent, you have a choice. 

The child says there’s a monster under my bed. You could say, “There’s no monster. Go to bed. I have to get up early and work tomorrow,” or you could say, “Don’t be silly. There’s no monsters,” or, if you really want to listen, you could sit on the bed and say, “Oh my God, babe, that must have been terrifying. Tell me about it. What did you see? What was it like? Do you want me to look under the bed? Do you want to look under the bed with me? Would you like me to stay here with you until you fall asleep?” 

A child confronted with the first thing learns to suppress that fear. “I’m stupid for having done that. Push me down.” The other example where the parent sits down, learns, “Oh, I get to be scared, off balance, making things up, and someone still wants to hear from me. Even as they’re correcting me, letting me know, there’s really no monster under the bed, but if there is, I’m right here.” Those little things change your life.

(14:31) Doreen Downing: Yes, I’m hearing that. How you explain that is how we learn to do that for ourselves. It’s like there is a way to do it. We’re learning as little ones. Our body goes, “Oh, there is a way to self-soothe and calm myself down. This is what I have to do. There’s a process.” you pretty much describe that process of self-soothing and calming yourself down in such a way that you faced fear. You talked about it and you embraced it. You moved through it. 

(15:08) Randall Alifano: I love how you’re speaking about it. Exactly that. We learned how to listen to ourselves later in life. 

(15:15) Doreen Downing: Yes, that’s it. 

(15:17) Randall Alifano: If I’m scared, there’s a part of me now going, “I know, sweetie, that was scary, huh?”

(15:22) Doreen Downing: Yes. 

(15:22) Randall Alifano: And everything calms down. 

(15:25) Doreen Downing: Oh, this is wonderful. It’s almost like when you really do hear somebody that goes to the depth. It’s like we’re in a whole new world. Exploring, talking, listening, being together and what you demonstrated, people who aren’t watching you, but you put your hands together you have the two separate, but then you brought them together like one and there’s a message.

Moving on with the “Us” as you’ve demonstrated here today already, how we do that is with deep listening and curiosity, a little bit about finding your voice, and I know it’s about listening and curiosity. As you started to move out into the world and the work that you’ve done, some of what I described when I introduced you around some of those frontline disturbing life situations for people. I know you just talked about the little guy in the bed, all twisted up and in a way, he could have been having nightmares, but you are talking, you have worked with people who have been literally in a nightmare. Say some things about what comes up about—oh, your face just changed. 

(16:46) Randall Alifano: You saw it. Good for you. Oh, you’re good at this. Yes. I dropped in and felt it. Good. I’m glad that you see it. 

(16:52) Doreen Downing: Yes, I do. I feel it. I have compassion for, and great respect for somebody who can take himself to where people struggle so much.

(17:05) Randall Alifano: I can tell you a little story about that. When I first started my practice, a psychiatrist, a friend of mine referred someone to me who said she needed supportive counseling. He was ridiculously inaccurate. She had been tortured by her extended family and she had been through many therapists and she started talking about the things that had happened to her in childhood.

It was so beyond my pay grade. I had never heard stories like this before. I had no idea what to do, but I had some confidence. I knew how to listen, so I asked her to share the horror with me. 

(17:49) Doreen Downing: Yes, 

(17:50) Randall Alifano: She did, and I wouldn’t stop asking questions, or being curious until I could feel what it was like when she was five years old, and those guys did that thing to her. It was horrifying. It was not easy to take it in. But when I did, we had a contact that was extraordinary. 

She doesn’t need to be assessed, diagnosed, and treated. She needs to be listened to. She was aching for someone, like me in the bed, someone to say, “You’re scared. I’m here. Let’s talk about it.” And, she taught me, maybe more than anybody else, she taught me how to listen because it was the only thing I knew how to do. 

I didn’t know how to treat. It was just, “What happened?” Then, I learned that that kind of listening, that listening where I’m really willing to be penetrated by her material, that was the curative factor. She went on and lived a great life after our work completed and wasn’t tortured by these memories anymore. She taught me a great deal about how to just stop trying, keep even my good intentions, watch my own filters, my own biases, and just open to listening, and she transformed.

I thought, “Okay. This I can do.” And then because she told her psychiatrist and psychiatrist told other people, I started getting these referrals of folks that had been really tortured and therapists and psychiatrists didn’t know what to do with them. So, over and over again, they taught me how to listen. Just get out of the way and listen.

(19:30) Doreen Downing: You used a phrase, “Taking in somebody’s suffering and let it penetrate you.” I know as a sensitive person myself and other people that I’ve worked with that talk about not having a filter because they’re too impacted, they can’t listen. Tell us something about how this listening that you’re talking about to both be penetrated, but not— 

(19:57) Randall Alifano: Overwhelmed? 

(19:58) Doreen Downing: Whatever the words you might be. Yes, there’s a limit to how much you can take, but it feels like you, my dear, have no limit. The kind of populations you’ve worked with, the way you can listen, and the reason why I’m asking this is because not only I want to hear more about you, the man you are, but also, I think that there’s some clue you can give to people who are out there living and listening today, living their lives, about how to go to this place of deep listening, where you are affected, can hear, but it’s not destroying your own sensibility.

(20:38) Randall Alifano: I first have to say, you’re really good at this. This is a really great question. It’s right to it. My best guess answer is, therapists talk a lot about empathy fatigue, and I looked into that internally. Why don’t I get fatigued when I listen to folks? And I thought, “Oh, I wonder if empathy fatigue is because when someone says something we don’t understand or it’s too horrible or whatever, we contract.” We perhaps even unconsciously tighten up a little bit like, “What? I don’t know what to do or how do I treat this person?”

And I realized, when I’m listening, my body’s open. I’m relaxed. I want what they’re saying to enter me. I want to feel it from the inside out and then it doesn’t feel hard. I don’t know how to say it any differently. It doesn’t feel like a struggle because I’m not tight inside. 

My filters aren’t coloring my perspective in terms of what I’m supposed to do, what my responsibilities are, maybe I’ll mess this up. All the different scary filters that we have in our minds that we’ve been taught from childhood. They were all quiet. 

That’s why I think psychology and spirituality have to be integrated when we listen. Because we’re not just listening for, “I was traumatized as a child.” We’re also listening for the whole human being, their spiritual side, if you will. 

(22:07) Doreen Downing: Oh, yes. 

(22:08) Randall Alifano: Does that make sense? 

(22:09) Doreen Downing: It makes absolutely great sense to me. I call that —I actually have a class for therapists, healers, and even coaches—full presence listening, and you just described it. What is that actually? The first is the how, and you gave some hints on the how to do full presence listening, and then the second is the impact on the person that you’re being fully present with. It’s just very healing and powerful and life-changing. 

(22:42) Randall Alifano: Yes, absolutely. That’s been my experience anyway. 

(22:45) Doreen Downing: Yes. Well, we’re moving on into what you’re doing currently in life now, and also, again, coming back to voice, anything you can say about—I mean, I know you’ve already said a lot about how listening affects the sense of yourself being able to express, but I’m going to give you just a moment here to reflect on what does it mean to have a voice.

(23:14) Randall Alifano: What just comes to mind as you say that is —that’s why I wrote the book—I felt compelled to express my voice about listening, because time and time again, that seemed to be what was missing, so if I can share with people the beauty, the interconnectedness, the spirituality of really listening, that’s a voice I’d like to be attached to, especially with folks like you, where you’re already there, it seems to me.

Already I feel this sweet connection with you, that you’re hearing my voice. I’m really hearing your voice. We’re being moved by it, even though we don’t really know each other. There’s just this easy, generous contact between us. Someone listens, their voice comes up, like it is with you and me, and the other person feels permission to speak, and it doesn’t feel pushed. It’s just easy going. 

(24:13) Doreen Downing: Yes. It feels like we could do this all day long in exchange of you saying something, me listening, and getting curious, and we both get curious about each other. It’s just beautiful to live in this idea of everything is possible rather than trying to exert influence or make you do something, but to live in the present, which is what we’re doing, and being curious and listening.

Your book is titled Listening in the Raw. Is there a subtitle? I can’t remember. 

(24:52) Randall Alifano: Coming Home to Receptivity. 

(24:54) Doreen Downing: Coming Home to Receptivity. All right. Anything else you want to say about the book itself? And I get that the book itself is your expression of your voice. 

(25:04) Randall Alifano: Yes, it really is. It’s like when clients have bought it, they say, “I just hear you talking. I read the book. It’s you. You’re just being Randall,” and I thought, “I like that. That’s good.” 

(25:16) Doreen Downing: Yes, wonderful. We’re coming to the end. How do people find your book? 

(25:22) Randall Alifano: Amazon or Audible. In fact, the Audible copy was read by my son, Lucas Alifano. He’s the Earl of dad jokes. That’s a very sweet moment for me too, to hear my boy reading my book. 

(25:33) Doreen Downing: Yes. Well, since we’re now coming to a close, what would you like to leave listeners with today? That’s a question that opens up the floor for you to be, because we are present in the here and now, and listening to what wants to be said as we end our time together.

(25:55) Randall Alifano: Well, of course, that could be a dissertation-length answer, but I think because we’re coming to the end, I would just like to suggest that people drop into curiosity, that when they start to have a contact with someone, first, maybe take a breath, drop their intentions, even good intentions, and just land in, “Who is this person? What do I want to know about them?” And be led by that and see what happens. 

When they have an urge to say, “Oh, that reminds me. I took this hike and—” Just say, “Okay, honey, we’ll share that in a minute,” and stay with “What was that like? What was that hike like for you?” Keep on going until you go, “Oh yes, that feeling. When you saw the mountains or the mountain goat or the bear.” Then maybe start to share your own stories but follow your curiosity until you really feel them. That would be my advice. 

(26:50) Doreen Downing: Oh, thank you. I’m going to take that advice into my day for sure. We’ll get back in touch with each other and have way more of these conversations because it’s so enriching. Thank you.