#71 Everything Starts with Self-Esteem

Transcript of Interview

 

Find Your Voice, Change Your Life Podcast

 

Podcast Host: Dr. Doreen Downing

 

Free Guide to Fearless Speaking: Doreen7steps.com

 

Episode #71 Clarissa Burt

 

“Everything Starts With Self-Esteem”

 

 

 

 

 

(00:35) Dr. Doreen Downing

Hi, I’m Dr. Doreen Downing and I’m host of the Find Your Voice, Change Your Life podcast. What I do is invite guests, guests who have had some kind of history, some kind of story that they are willing to share about their struggle having had a voice. Perhaps it was something early on in life, or maybe somewhere just growing up there was a challenge that they had to face in order to be more of who they can be. Today I get to introduce, Clarissa Burt. Hi, Clarissa.

 

(01:10) Clarissa Burt

Hey there, Doreen. Good to see you.

 

(01:12) Dr. Doreen Downing

I know. I’m so excited. You and I have been getting to know each other. But before I launch into asking these questions about your life, I’d like to read a little bit of a bio that you sent because I already am just so in awe of how much you’ve been able to accomplish already in your life. So let me read a little bit about that. Clarissa Burt is an internationally-acclaimed, award-winning media personality, producer, director, writer, author, public speaker, and former supermodel and winner of the celebrity survivor show. That’s a big breath. I’m so proud of you.

 

(01:57) Clarissa Burt

Thank you.

 

(01:58) Dr. Doreen Downing

With hundreds of television and film credits to her name this who’s who of international and American women brings over 35 years of entertainment industry experience in both international and American markets. Her best-selling book entitled The Self-Esteem Regime was just published and I got it on Amazon and have already read it. Apparently, there’s an audio book out too so you’ve got both options there. As the ambassador to the United States, she actively helped African women. Let me just make sure I get that true, because I haven’t heard that story but she actively helped African women win the Nobel Peace Prize in 2011. Oh, you must be so proud of that.

 

(02:52) Clarissa Burt

Yes, dear.

 

(02:53) Dr. Doreen Downing

Okay, in June, this is the most recent accomplishment that I got to hear about. In June of 2022, Clarissa was knighted by the Royal Order of Constantine the Great and St. Helen, joining the ranks of 350 dames worldwide. So, there we go. We’re in for a really wonderful show today because of not only what Clarissa is bringing, but just because I’ve already spoken with her. I know she’s so articulate and willing to be vulnerable. That’s what this show is about… it is unpeeling layers and just being real.

 

(03:39) Clarissa Burt

Yes. Well, we learn from one another. That’s kind of the way it goes. When people do open up, it’s cathartic for you, but hopefully, it’s reaching out and helping someone else that might be going through some difficulties. I remember when I suffered very deep and dark depression back when I was about 26 years old, I had no idea what’s happening to me. Remember, when I was 26 years old, Doreen, there were no computers, no cell phones, no internet, there was no place to go and find out what the heck is wrong with me. It was only by reaching out really that even so sometimes some random strangers on a bus, couple of friends. People would say, oh, Clarissa I know what that is, it’s depression, and I’ve had it too. Well, thank you for that, because I had no idea why I was feeling so bleak. I’ll tell you. I think and I can say I’ve had a couple of different depressions through my lifetime, but there really— I don’t think there’s a physical pain that is more painful than mental pain. One of the reasons I wrote the book, The Self-Esteem Regime is because I do understand and I’d like for all to understand the importance of living in and living with happy, healthy self-esteem. But we’ll get to that.

 

(04:55) Dr. Doreen Downing

Yes, yes. Well, that’s a little bit of a forward looking at more that you will be able to share today, and you’re right. First of all, I’d like to hear a little bit about where you were, where you grew up, and what that was like, because those formative years do play a part later on usually, at least in my work as a psychologist, I like to dig deep, a little bit deeper and to say, “hmm?” What were your first learnings about voice and being yourself in this world?

 

(05:35) Clarissa Burt

The voice that I learned was very loud screaming voices. My childhood was fraught with yelling, screaming, violence, alcohol, and not lots of fun. When I say that, my father, speaking about my dad, at this point, was a little bit on the Dr. Jekyll side. One minute it was all the things I just explained. Then the next minute, he was perfect, the super dad and lots of fun, and all the neighborhood kids loved him. Then the neighborhood kids would go home, and my dad would be drinking, and then we’d all go to hell again, and a handbag. So, it was difficult for me as the oldest child to try to navigate between what was happening with my father and then my mother, because they kind of came as a pair, and then my brother and sister to make sure that everyone in the family was taken care of much to my ability, I could keep everything even-keeled and very, very peaceful, as much as I could. Try to get the kids out of the way. Try to make sure my mom was okay. It’s very funny. I didn’t recognize this story for years. That most of the fighting and the screaming, the yelling and my father’s beating of my mother would take place at night after the kids were in bed. I was always a light sleeper. I’m an ADHD kind of kid. It’s hard for me. I could never take afternoon naps so I would wake up easily when the yelling and the screaming started. I heard so many times the beatings that took place and it was traumatic. I didn’t know of course, as a child, you just try to navigate the best you can and keep yourself above water. In later years, once my mother— and even then, I would wake up in the morning as a five-year-old, six-year-old seven-year-old, all the way through to my later late teens, wake up every morning and before my eyes were really even open, I would go in, I would check every bedroom to make sure that everyone was still alive.

 

(07:39) Dr. Doreen Downing

Oh my, wow.

 

(07:42)) Clarissa Burt

Every bedroom. My mother— when my parents had separated, they were going through their divorce, we were living just my mother, my sister, and myself. My mom said, “Chrissy, do you know that you check the house every morning when you wake up?” That’s when I found out what I was doing. I didn’t know. Because it was an automatic response to wake up every day and go check and make sure everyone was alright. My mom told me that. Did you know that you go check the house every time, every morning when you wake up? Well, lightbulb, and I went, that’s PTSD.

 

(08:15) Dr. Doreen Downing

Yes, and the other part that I’m really getting from you. I know I’m an older sister too. So I understand that dynamic of protecting the younger ones and also kind of being the bridge.

 

(08:33)) Clarissa Burt

Buffer. Yes.

 

(08:34) Dr. Doreen Downing

The buffer, that’s a better word for it. Those early patterns. Just listening to you, and I’m sure people listening to you who have had this kind of experience have their bodies probably vibrating because actually that kind of experience that you’re talking about is deep in ourselves. It lives in our bodies. Just because we grow up and are successful women and running around being very professional. It doesn’t— it’s still back in there. Those memories have energy.

 

(09:14) Clarissa Burt

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I have taken a lifetime to work those things out and do the work that I could. Every time I would go into a bookstore, remember when there were bookstores, Doreen, it was a beautiful time of our lives. We go to Barnes and Noble, we go to Walden Books, we go to Borders Books. Bookstores were abound because there wasn’t the internet yet. When I walked into a bookstore, I was in the self-help section as they called it, now they really call it a little more personal growth or both. That’s where I live. I never read a biography and autobiography. I never read a fiction. I never read a romance. I don’t even know what that’s about. But I was living in the self-help section because it’s the only place that I could go to try to make sense of it all. Therefore, I will tell you, I’ve had many crowning moments in my life, but one of the most recent crowning moment is when I went to Barnes and Noble and my book is on the shelf, and not only is it on the shelf, but it’s next to Tabitha Brown, Brené Brown. It’s next to Deepak Chopra and Dr. Joe Dispenza. We’re all on the same shelf.

 

(10:31) Dr. Doreen Downing

ABCD? Yes.

 

(10:34) Clarissa Burt

Doreen, you talk about a pinch-me moment. These are the people that I look up to in adoration, that I followed, that I study to a certain extent, and to see Clarissa Burt, biggest of the B, right there, let me tell you, I have been proud as Punch this past year. The really important— because everything starts with self-esteem. If you’re not taught by your native tribe, what that is and what it means, it’s on you to go find out what that is, and life is going to knock you down, like kick you in the teeth, might punch you in the gut, it’s inevitable, you’re not going to get away from that. But what you can do is to sit up, make sure that those tools are in the shed, that you have your resources, that you’ve done the work and the work is difficult. The work takes courage. I mean, you’re going to take the— As you well know Doreen, and you’ve done this work for a lifetime, the deeper the dive goes, the more difficult and painful it might become. But when you go through it and get through that tunnel and the light is this teeny, when you first start, and it’s big, and bright, and bold, and beautiful as you’re coming out? Was it definitely worth the ride?

 

(11:56) Dr. Doreen Downing

Oh, Clarissa. The way you express yourself is really both entertaining as well as very profound. I like the phrase you used about the tribe, the original tribe, you’re right. That’s where we learn. Before we move on, just around your voice and this original tribe that you’ve already described, what would you say was your voice then?

 

(12:23) Clarissa Burt

Well, let’s just remember that what the natal tribe teach us— We have to accept that it may not always be right, or it may not always serve us for our greater good. So, we always go back to Thanksgiving dinners, and we go back for Christmas, and we send on Easter cards, and all the lovely things we do. We love them where they’re at, as we grow and move forward with our own growth, it doesn’t mean we want to vilify them, doesn’t mean we want to make them wrong, we just want to love them where they’re at. There are many other things along the way. Our educative process, our faith, there are many different things where we’re going to be, there’s going to be intake, and some of it will serve and some of it won’t as we move toward our greater good. That’s going to annoy people, it might piss a few people off. Some noses may be out of joint, but don’t let that hold you back. Don’t let that be the anchor that stunts your growth. As long as you are living your greater good, not hurting anybody on purpose, then you should be. You have every right. It’s your intrinsic right to live your life in happy, healthy self-esteem. When you do that, you’re affecting everyone else around you in a very happy, healthy positive way.

 

(13:44) Dr. Doreen Downing

With your message here about moving on in life and doing the inner work, it sounds like it’s an inside job and that is what I say is finding your voice. Talk about the journey because you began to become aware of yourself being, as you said earlier today on our call, the depression, the moment that you started to realize you were carrying depression and that’s not a place where esteem, the voice of esteem is. I’d like to hear a little bit more about what the voice of esteem is and how you find it. How do you get through it when you’re depressed? Where would the voice of esteem come from?

 

(14:30) Clarissa Burt

Super great question. I’d like to think I was always a very vivacious child. I was the one that was chosen as Mary Poppins in a kindergarten play for example. I was always very vivacious, and I always wanted to please and make everybody happy. I was a talker and I was a singer. I was all over the place and I get a lot of accolades for that. But at the same time in the house, there was a lot of doom and gloom and I learned from that very early on. I think the first encounter that I had with my father was in Rambo when he threw my mother down the steps and she was pregnant with me and screamed at her. I hope you lose the baby. Now, I know that fetuses do absorb, they hear and they understand a lot more than we think that they do. So, I knew almost coming in that I really had to buckle my seatbelt because it was going to be a bumpy ride. Anyway, I think I started to feel melancholy more than depressed as a child. It was, what do you mean that you’re happy now? Okay, that’s great but please stay that way, then, oh, no, you’re angry again, don’t do that. There was this kind of back and forth in my little mind as to what was happening. I think I really became aware a little bit later in life. It took me a while once I got out of the natal home, and I’m running around Europe now. I started my modelling career and all those, and it’s a very lonely career, that’s also, again, full of rejection.

 

(16:12) Dr. Doreen Downing

Yes, and dysfunction probably.

 

(16:17) Clarissa Burt

I think the other thing is, if you look for dysfunction, you’re going to find it. I didn’t really have that much of the dysfunction behind the business. Honestly, I really didn’t. So, I have to come to the businesses’ defence on that. It was not my personal experience. Some of the girls, the models, beautiful creatures were— They were drinking and drugging, but these are young teens, 18, 19, 20, 21. I think you can find that pretty much anywhere, especially college campuses. It’s a young time, it’s fun time, it’s party time.

 

(16:52) Dr. Doreen Downing

It’s a time of finding yourself.

 

(16:54) Clarissa Burt

Finding yourself. Also, there were some of the things that were true there. But it was really, I think, if you look for it a little bit more, you’ll find it. I wasn’t the party kind of gal. I bring the party, which I am the party. No, I’m kidding. I’m joking. Well, kind of, but not. But anyway, I was never— I was up early and in bed early. I just didn’t like the party vibe. But it didn’t mean that I wasn’t learning as I went along the way. I think it was a very strong sense of right and wrong. I was born to an Irish Catholic family. My parents were very strict and severe about right and wrong, no matter how much right or wrong they did. It was taught to us, what right and wrong was and wasn’t. I knew. Your gut will always tell you, Doreen. It always tells you what is. You must listen to your gut because it never betrays you. Be careful what you tell your subconscious because it always believes you. These were the things upon which I really— I learned and that was what I call, I want to live high. I just want to live high. I want to live in honesty. I want to live in integrity. I want to live with gratitude, and I want to live with honor. If I can bring those four things to the table, no matter where I go, then I know that I’m doing my job. I’m working on being a better person tomorrow than I am today. My standards may be a little bit higher than others, at least I’ve been told. But I don’t think it’s okay to lie, cheat, and steal. I don’t think it’s okay to betray. That’s not living in happy, healthy self-esteem. When you’re following your values and the life rules, if you want to call them that way. It’s pretty easy stuff.

 

(18:47) Dr. Doreen Downing

You mentioned Beth…

 

(18:54) Clarissa Burt

Beth Davis, yes.

 

(18:56) Dr. Doreen Downing

When you said Beth, I thought Bette Middler. I remembered that song of the rose with the seed with the sun’s love and that’s what I’m feeling about you that inside, there was a seed and regardless of being like that first image you gave us of being thrown down the stairs while you’re in your mom’s belly, but in the bumpy ride that was going to happen for you, wow, something was planted somehow before you even arrived in this universe. It was waiting to be seen, grown somehow. What would you say were the wake ups to that inner voice?

 

(19:43) Clarissa Burt

I think it was, as we said before, life’s great disappointments, lots of broken relationships, suffering through those, with family, with friends, with men. It was funny because I always get, I’m not good enough for you. I think, wait a minute. Yes, you are. I would have to sort of— I was finding that myself on more than one occasion, having to dumb myself down to make sure that I wasn’t too much for someone. I was playing small. I didn’t want to lose someone. I didn’t want to be as big and bright and bold and beautiful, as we said before. Then I just realized one day that that wasn’t living in my truth, and it wasn’t working for me anymore. That my work was so much bigger, better, bolder, and brighter than what I was living, that I needed to step into the power that was given to me.

 

(20:46) Dr. Doreen Downing

I want to just hold right there because you said bigger, bolder, brighter, beautiful. Those four B’s. I just want to emphasize for our listeners, “Bigger, bolder, brighter, beautiful.” Wow, thank you.

 

(21:00) Clarissa Burt

It’s that important to me. Look, I’m 63 years old, and I’m alone. I’ve never been married. I’ve just gotten over another very painful— I didn’t date for 10 years, but then I did and then it ended not well, but I had to let that go because it was very funny, Doreen, and I think you’ll agree, or you’ll relate. That is, the book dropped down in November, and I got covid. I couldn’t do anything about the book until two months after it was published. But the universe went, oh, you want to teach everybody and show everyone that you want. You want to teach her about stuff? That’s so cute of you. Self-esteem, okay. Then all hell broke loose. I had to say goodbye to a relationship. I’m not going to lie. I was in fetal position for two months after that, but I had to let it go. So, the relationship with him ended. I got sick with covid. I lost half of the hair on my head for covid shed. I had a business partner who went behind my back and did some dastardly deeds, which cut them out. Sorry, I don’t play that way. It was business. It was health. It was physical health, emotional health. It was my heart. One other thing happened that absolutely decimated me. I’m so glad I can’t remember it now. But there was one thing after another, I lost— my entire google drive disappeared. All my life disappeared. Everything was gone. This all happened within two months. I spent Christmas alone. I spent New Year alone. I went through hell. Those last months. I’m a little bit farther along now. I feel much better.

 

Okay, you’re going to walk the walk, now you’re going to talk to talk, or we’re going to put you through hell, so you can talk about your book even better now. But the relationship wasn’t certain— I lost a family member. I lost the man of my life. So much loss. But at the end of the day, I know that I didn’t do anything wrong. Every account. Nobody’s told me anything that I’ve done wrong. Doesn’t mean I’m perfect but I know what I did. This is the point. The point is that they talk about the road less travelled or go the extra mile. Sometimes the extra mile is not going to be as crowded. You might be out there and you might be out on that extra mile, it might be dark, and it might be lonely, and it might be raining and thundering and lightning, and you’re scared as all get out. But then the next day, you know that sun comes out again, and there you are, and it’s like well, this is kind of cool. You have to learn how to stand on your own two feet to know that you are enough, just as you are. In fact, hold on, I get so sick of people saying I am enough and you are, and we are enough. No, because if you look at the word enough, it means only as much as is required. Now, Doreen, I don’t know about you, but I know, I am so much more than enough. That’s what I impart with all of us. Don’t be telling everybody I am enough. Tell everyone, I am so much more than enough.

 

(24:19) Dr. Doreen Downing

Oh, wonderful. Bigger, better, bolder, brighter. All those words, says Clarissa Burt.

 

(24:30) Clarissa Burt

Exactly.

 

(24:32) Dr. Doreen Downing

Oh wow. You’re so inspiring both during the struggle as well as, here you are, on the verge of saying, finally, in a way, this is my voice, my book. I’m putting it all together and then the collapsing of so much and then like you say, the walking the talk and here you are, many months down the line still this year and—

 

(24:57) Clarissa Burt

You also have to remember, Doreen. As you know hurt people hurt people. In that case, with relationships, and for your life, you have three choices. You can give up, give in or give it all you got. Give up, give in, or give it all you’ve got. Remember that there’s nothing that happens to you in life that has meaning, except for the meaning you give it.

 

(25:20) Dr. Doreen Downing

Yes, say that one more time, please.

 

(25:23) Clarissa Burt

There’s nothing in life that has meaning, except for the meaning you give it.

 

(25:27) Dr. Doreen Downing

Oh, yes.

 

(25:29) Clarissa Burt

You’re going to be a prisoner of your past because your past— It was just a lesson, not a life sentence.

 

(25:34) Dr. Doreen Downing

Yes. Big breath, Clarissa. That’s so much today, nuggets of golden wisdom coming out of your voice is very inspirational. Thank you. I want to make sure that people get a little bit more about your book, specifically, how to find it, and anything else you want to say about.

 

(26:02) Clarissa Burt

Well, The Self-Esteem Regime, as you can see, it’s a blue cover. When I first got it back from the publishers, it was three different iterations of blue, and it was pink, yellow, and orange. It’s very bright, kind of like my shirt. I wrote back. You have to be very careful what you say to the publishers. This looks really great but I’m wondering if you made it three iterations of blue, would men be more apt to pick it up? Because let’s not forget, men are not exempt, nor are they excluded from the self-esteem club. No, you never take a self-esteem test, get 100, and you pass. Self-esteem does not work like that. I’ve had men read this book and just be really happy and thrilled that they did, because guys are going through it too. It’s not just women and girls with whom I normally speak, but guys are going through it too. So that’s really important to me. It just is this whole book is an action plan for becoming a competent person you were meant to be. Every chapter starts with a “re“ word. We start with release, and we end with reciprocity, and everything in between. There are case studies. There are reviews. We’ve got Clarissa’s corner. We’ve got clarion call. All these different shout outs and homework. The homework is where the rubber hits the road. That’s where the big girls put their breeches on.

 

Why do I call it a regime? A regime is an organized way of doing things. That means no more excuses, no more baloney. I don’t want to hear it. Get the book and do the work. No moaning, no groaning. I’ll hold your hand a little bit. But not a lot of it. Then you’re at the end of that tunnel that I’ve— now, constantly life is always ebbs and flows. The tornado is going to come through. But when you’re standing strong in your stead, when you’re firmly rooted, and that storm comes through, you may lose a leaf, you may lose even a branch, but you’re not going to be uprooted and taken away by the storm. So get the tools in the shed. Get the tools in the shed.

 

(28:14) Dr. Doreen Downing

Yes. Well, people who aren’t able to see you because they’re listening to this. What you did with your fingers, you just did this—

 

(28:24) Clarissa Burt

In the ground.

 

(28:27) Dr. Doreen Downing

Every single finger was like a root into the ground. That’s what our being is what I’m getting from you is our sense of self. I would like you to because release, rebuild responsibility, replace. Some of those “re’s” for me were just— I loved it. I loved that there was a format of “re”, because then it just helped me think about other “re’s”, like reimagine. Just so many “re” words and it brought it into my life about owning these words that you’re talking about.

 

(29:10) Clarissa Burt

Yeah, I’m really happy with the two words that we’ve chosen. The regime for me was a really important word. Again, the organized way of doing things, that’s what regime means. I wanted to get this into an organized structure so that people could read the book, either all lines or in little bite-sized pieces. Remember, most self-help books and most personal growth books, when you read it today, and you read it in the next three days, you’re going to know, and everything’s going to land where it needs to land with you right now. What resonates is what you will need to know now. If you read it in six months’ time, which I highly suggest that you do, all kinds of other things are going to pop out of this book that you didn’t see the first time. I didn’t read that. You weren’t ready. You weren’t ready. Get in, get your hands dirty. Get in there and start doing the work. Some of it is really fun. There are things that will come up that you didn’t even know were stuffed down there. Something you have to work on. But there are things that are going to reveal themselves to you that you didn’t even know. How cool is that? When you start to clear up, I know how much better I feel when I clean the house. Throw out the garbage house. It’s all nice and clean and sparkly. You just start getting rid of things. As I get older, I’m starting to get rid of more things. It’s it feels great, because it’s just so much lighter. You’re not as heavy. You’re not as burdened. You’re not as bogged down.

 

(30:43) Dr. Doreen Downing

Yes. Well, you’re talking about the lightness of being. The “re” word us just a second ago, which I feel like we can end on is the resonate that in reading the book, I think there’s lots to resonate to or with and what you said about well, it may not resonate right now, but make sure and stay with it, because tomorrow’s a different day for you, so that the resonance is there, available for you.

 

(31:18) Clarissa Burt

Dr. Doreen, you are so calming. I could talk to you all the time.

 

(31:25) Dr. Doreen Downing

Well, I love—

 

(31:28) Clarissa Burt

You’re so calming. I just love it.

 

(31:30) Dr. Doreen Downing

Oh, well, it’s something I love to create space for people to come into and explore and to reveal. See you got me going with all the “re” words. I just love you so much. I’m so happy that you got to spend time with me today. Any last words, please? Oh, how they can find you?

 

(31:56) Clarissa Burt

Oh, yes. The book is on Amazon. You can find it on Kindle as well and on Audible. You can also find it in the stores in Barnes and Noble. I’m so excited about that. I just think that’s the greatest thing ever. We have the vision board, Dr. Doreen, and you check that off the list, check next off the list. It’s a very exciting moment. I open this up to everyone. Create your lists. Have those exciting moments. Work for it. Work toward it. Know that you are good enough. Know that you can do anything. I say, you can do anything. Well, here’s another thing, you can do anything until you can’t. You can do anything until you can’t. What I mean by that is, who do you need to be calling that you haven’t? Who do you need to be apologizing to that you haven’t? Who do you meet that you need to make amends with? What is it that you’ve left kind of hanging and then one day, you come to know that you can no longer do that, because that person with whom you’ve been distanced is no longer on the earth, no longer among us. I leave that as another part, because when you are the first one to reach out, the first one to make amends, the first one want to make it right, it is such an amazing self-esteem moment, you’re going to feel so good about yourself for doing it. They’re going to feel so much better about you doing it as well. It’s a win-win. It’s a double whammy. It’s one of those kinds of things that’s going to take courage, and sometimes maybe it’s eating a little crow, maybe you just have it— Who cares? It doesn’t matter anymore. I want to make it right with so and so. I’m going to go do that. You talk about a self-esteem moment. That’s one right there.

 

Here’s another one that I love to leave people with, and that is loyalty is when you have my back behind my back. Loyalty is when I have your back behind your back. So, when you’re at the watercooler or you’re within your little coffee clutch, whatever it is you do, and people start speaking poorly about someone, I would suggest that you don’t jump in, you don’t foment the fire, you take a backseat to something like that, take a higher road, and do the best you can. Do what’s right or just come out and say, hey I know Suzie Q and that’s not my experience to her. Maybe she’s just having a bad day or you caught her in a bad moment. I really want to be the advocate for let’s make this right if we can. I don’t want to be teachy-preachy. I just want to be and advocate. Do we all have to be so ugly with one another? Do we have to do that really? That’s what I leave you with. Loyalty is when you have my back behind my back.

 

(34:45) Dr. Doreen Downing

I hate to end because already those two last words or last ideas or thoughts are ones that I’d love to expand on but we’ll have more time together because it feels like there’s throwing of a ball back and forth that we could play ball anytime and really have a lot of fun. Thank you so much.

 

(35:08) Clarissa Burt

Thank you, Dr. Doreen for having me on the show. I truly appreciate your time. Thank you.