#155 Fear Shapes Us and Presence Frees Us

Transcript of Interview

Find Your Voice, Change Your Life Podcast

Podcast Host: Dr. Doreen Downing

Free Guide to Fearless Speaking: Doreen7steps.com

Episode # 155 Linda Graf

“Fear Shapes Us and Presence Frees Us”

[00:00:00] Doreen Downing: Hi, this is Dr. Doreen Downing, host of the Find Your Voice, Change Your Life podcast, and I have a special guest today. All my guests are special, but when you’ve been through many journeys with one of them, it feels like you are very close and dear-hearted to one, and that’s who my friend is today, Linda Graf.

Hi, Linda.

Hello, Doreen.

I’m going to briefly introduce you. Linda Graf is a relationship and mental fitness coach who’s been coaching and leading workshops for 20-plus years. Linda helps women 45-plus open to the possibility of their most important relationships and what that can be, providing them with step-by-step tools and practices so they can make it happen.

And the “it” is what we’re talking about today, right? A better life—what would you say the “it” is?

[00:01:04] Linda Graf: Better relationships.

[00:01:07] Doreen Downing: That’s a better life, isn’t it?

[00:01:08] Linda Graf: Absolutely. We come in wanting relationships from the moment we’re born, really—nobody teaches us how.

[00:01:18] Doreen Downing: Yes. Already I’m getting little goosebumps just listening to you. I know that the audience, hello, listeners, you’re in for a treat because Linda and I have a similar wavelength.

If you’ve already been attracted to my podcast and who I am, you’ll certainly be awed. What she just said is already profound. We don’t come in knowing, but we are already a knower. We’re bringing that in, and it’s what we want.

Hi, Linda. Let’s get rolling. I always start with you not having a voice somewhere along the line in your life because this is about voice, right? We come in with a goo-goo gaga, as Lee Glickstein says, but something happens.

If we could focus on you and a reflection that comes to you about the difficulty, if you had one, of having a voice early on in life.

[00:02:34] Linda Graf: It was really interesting. When we decided to do this podcast together, I really thought about it. It’s been a while, but I had a great, very fortunate childhood—very lucky.

Then in my teenage years, things really changed in my family. In my early years in grammar school, I won speech contests and got to speak in front of the whole school. It’s pretty crazy. I was fine.

Then when I was 15, my dad went through some financial crisis and everything got pulled away. The whole bottom of my earth disappeared—my ballet lessons, my piano lessons.

I was a pretty spoiled kid. Everything changed overnight. No fault of his, it was just a really challenging time. I lost that parent support at a time when I needed it.

I suddenly became very aware and vulnerable—I have to step into the world and take care of myself right now. I learned quickly that I could not speak in front of groups anymore.

I couldn’t even speak in front of six people without getting like this really—yes, it was hard. It was really hard. That’s when it started.

[00:03:58] Doreen Downing: Puberty—yes. Thank you. I relate, actually. I won contests when I was in eighth grade and was school spirit commissioner during high school.

It didn’t occur to me until much later. I can relate to what you’re saying—feeling pretty comfortable being a little girl and then something happens.

My story isn’t what we’re talking about today, but I want the listeners to hear that even if you’ve had what you look back on and appreciate as an early childhood, if you have anxiety now about speaking up, somewhere along the line, there’s been a twist.

Something happened. That’s what my work is about—getting curious about it. Let’s just get curious about what happened.

Thank you. I also felt like, okay, you’ve got a frame, and all of a sudden, there’s no frame.

[00:05:02] Linda Graf: And—

[00:05:05] Doreen Downing: How did that feel?

[00:05:07] Linda Graf: Well, I didn’t realize it until I got asked to speak. I was in sales and got asked to speak on a panel of six people. I had the quivering face, sweaty palms, and I couldn’t even think. It was just a conversation, and I realized, oh, there’s something going on here. That was probably in my 20s or mid-20s.

[00:05:33] Doreen Downing: Yes, how we journey through life with who we are, and then it pops up in a certain situation, confronting us with the fact that fear has taken hold. Yes, it does that.

[00:05:52] Doreen Downing: The feeling of it is what I hear from folks. It feels like it’s hijacked.

[00:06:00] Linda Graf: That’s exactly how it feels. You can think, “I can prepare for this,” but you can’t. It just happens.

[00:06:08] Linda Graf: I was really lucky. A couple of things happened in my career. I didn’t know where I was going. I was in sales, running my business, and starting to complete that business. Something was calling me to do more, which turned out to be coaching. Along that journey, I kept feeling like I needed to face this problem.

I never thought I’d see myself on stage, in front of groups, or running workshops, but something was pulling me. I knew I had to deal with this because it was going to hold me back. It wasn’t even a mental thing—it was emotional. I just knew I had to do it.

One of my dear friends was getting married and had a total freak-out about saying her vows in front of friends and family. She was committed to expressing herself authentically in front of people and her soon-to-be husband, so she was courageous enough to find help. She found Speaking Circles, Lee, you, and the whole group.

I saw her get married, and it was absolutely stunning, authentic, and beautiful. I knew she had learned something. That’s what brought me to Speaking Circles and working with a couple of facilitators before I met you and Lee a couple of years later.

[00:07:47] Doreen Downing: Great. It’s interesting for listeners with events coming up that there is help for you right away. You don’t have to rehearse hundreds of times, sweat, or rely on whatever you drink to prepare. One of my clients came in February because he had to give his vows in September and was already worried.

We worked together, and while I couldn’t attend the wedding, I know they’re still happily married with two little children now. It had to be successful.

[00:08:34] Linda Graf: Yes. Isn’t it interesting to see what compels people to move forward? You have thousands of stories because you’ve worked with so many people. What are some of the themes that compel people to move forward?

[00:08:50] Doreen Downing: Yes, events like that, where the fright shows up. What you mentioned is that all of a sudden, it happens to you. Your body goes into a state of panic, and you don’t understand why. It seems like that’s never happened before, but why this time?

What that does is it becomes a little mini trauma. Because it happened once, you think or imagine that it’s going to happen again. That’s another reason. Career advancement is another, where they know the next level involves leading meetings or doing presentations. They want it, but they feel they can’t do it.

[00:09:43] Linda Graf: There’s something too, I know, about people I’ve worked with and you. It’s not just a career. It’s more like a purpose. People want to share their story in some way. Being able to share your story with more than one person at a time is powerful. When you start to see the impact of that—

[00:10:07] Doreen Downing: I’m so glad you brought that one up. It’s not just some external circumstance, but what’s going on inside of you. It’s not just the calling, but the destiny that feels like there is something more for you. You have a sense of it, and its potential. You know you have potential and want to manifest more of that. The second part of what you said was the story.

[00:10:40] Linda Graf: Yes, one of my favorite things. That’s the destiny in the story. Sharing that with people is huge.

[00:10:49] Doreen Downing: I’m going off course for a minute because I’ve been at some of your events. Could you share about them? I don’t think you’re doing them currently, but you may get back to them.

[00:11:04] Linda Graf: I may get back to them. I kind of got swerved up. They’re called Tiny Talks events—teeny tiny TED Talks. I started doing these community events, and I’ve done six of them in Montana and California. I moved to Montana, and I love stories and wanted to know my community.

I woke up one morning with the idea to put on an event where people from different parts of the community who don’t usually talk to each other share little teeny tiny stories about themselves. They would bring their audience, and we’d all mingle afterward. It built community and gave people a chance to share what was important to them.

I kept the stories short, like eight minutes. If someone wasn’t engaged, we’d move on to the next one. It turned out to be really successful. The first one in Montana, in the winter, had 125 people show up, which was quite successful for me.

I met so many great people, cultivated and curated the speakers, and helped them tune into what mattered most to them. I got to meet so many great people. It was selfish on my part but also fun for the presenters and the audience. I love doing it. Anybody out there want to help me do another one? It takes some work, but they’re really fun.

[00:12:33] Doreen Downing: Yes, I’ve been there, and I can attest to not just the fun, but it’s so human. People get up and tell their stories in front of others. You said, “Selfish.” I feel like my podcast is a little selfish because I get to spend time with you like this. It’s more than just us having coffee.

It feels like we get to serve at the same time. We’re learning about each other, talking about ourselves, and providing a service for our listeners who could be struggling and hearing stories about how people found their voice. Let’s move on to that. You mentioned Speaking Circles and Lee Glickstein, and you started to listen to something inside of you that said, there’s more. You needed help, basically, is what you said. You can’t do it—

[00:13:44] Linda Graf: Alone. You cannot do it alone. The space of Speaking Circles is really not about speaking, it’s about listening. That was such a turning point for me, as well as learning that I can speak to one person at a time. I was really good at it, and I knew I was solid in that.

I learned to speak to one person at a time in a larger audience and have a relationship with them one at a time. There was something magical, just like right now, what we’re having, Doreen. There is something magical, rich, rewarding, and fun about being present with another human being.

Speaking Circles taught me that, as well as how to listen. Meeting you folks and taking that work forward has helped me tune in, not just to listening to the audience, but also in my relationship coaching. It gives people the opportunity to learn how to tune into themselves, especially during conflict.

Being curious, compassionate, and courageous enough to put aside judgment, beliefs, and opinions to listen to the other person is where conflict opens up. You all taught me that.

[00:15:20] Doreen Downing: Well, I’m going to ask you way more questions about what you just said. I have plenty. What’s interesting is the masterclass that I do is about face, embrace, and replace fear. There are the three C’s I also use—curiosity, compassion, and courage. Wow, I just went, did she take my masterclass?

Linda Graf: I missed that one. I’ve done some of yours. I missed that one.

Doreen Downing: Yes.

Linda Graf: It feels like it comes together, the process of coming closer to ourselves when we’re afraid.

[00:15:59] Linda Graf: Yes, this is where the practice comes in. It’s not like super-duper, you have to sit for months and months kind of practice. Little bitty practices every day, a couple minutes builds that mental muscle to be able to stop, notice, pause, take that profound pause before we blurt something we will regret later or stir the pot even more. Practice is really important too, having compassion for whatever you’re going through and whatever the other person’s going through.

[00:16:38] Doreen Downing: Great. I’ll be right back, or we will be right back.

Hi, this is Dr. Doreen Downing again, back with my friend Linda Graf. We’re talking about finding your voice, her own experience around teenage years when a whole rug-pulled-out experience destabilized her in such a way that she thinks that might have been the first place where she lost her voice.

It didn’t occur to her until maybe 10 years later that there’s something not easy about speaking in front of others. We’ve been talking about how to get more comfortable speaking in front—being yourself, not just speaking, but being yourself so that speaking comes from a more true place inside of you.

Linda did some work with my training partner, Lee Glickstein, and me many years ago and feels like she has found her voice as a relationship coach now. We were just talking about how this work, this listening you learn in the process of being more expressed, is not so much about speaking. It’s about listening to one person at a time.

Linda, you do relationship coaching, you set a container, and you’re talking about listening to people who aren’t listening to each other. What happens in that circumstance? How do you help?

[00:18:33] Linda Graf: How do I help? Yes. I work with a program that instantly shows you the kinds of negative thinking that show up when you’re triggered. They could be things like turning to patterns of behavior like being a victim, controlling, or being hyper-vigilant.

There are several patterns you can assess yourself on. Once you know them, you can tame them. That’s the first thing I do with people I work with if they’re willing and open to this, having them take this assessment so they know when they show up.

Over a short period of time, I take them through a 12-week program where the first section is learning techniques of how to notice, stop, and shift, getting to know your saboteurs. Saboteur behaviors really come from places when we were young that helped us.

For me, my controller is one of my strongest saboteurs. When I was at that 15- or 16-year-old stage, I had to take care of myself.

[00:19:49] Linda Graf: I was out on my own, so I took control of the situation, and it helped me. Controlling in building my businesses over the years has helped me.

When they are out of control, when I’m triggered, I tend to jump on situations. I’ll just do it. I’ll take care of that website because it’s faster. I move into this grabbing hold, and the hurt of it is it pushes people away.

In my close personal relationships, if I do that, it pushes my partner away, my girlfriends away, or whoever I’m in a relationship with. If I move too fast and try to grab on, I’ve learned that when my controller shows up, my body, my right shoulder, starts to go forward like I want to grab.

Now I can feel it, notice it, stop, and go, no, no, no. I teach my clients this—what is the saboteur that is your go-to? We learn together how they can learn from it and manage it.

[00:21:03] Doreen Downing: I love the idea that it’s embodied and that you’ve discovered the embodiment for yourself.

I’m going to take that thought because I know that one of my roots was five years old when my grandma told my sister and me to be quiet when my mother was depressed. She was in and out of the hospital, and grandma said, don’t say anything, don’t disturb your mother. She’s going to get sick.

I think there was a kind of, I got to stop, I better not. That sense of shoulders tightening and my fingers—

Linda Graf: I know, I was just going to—you’re like—

Doreen Downing: Yes. I’m going to take that idea of how I embody that shut-up or else experience.

Linda Graf: Yes, like ouch too.

Doreen Downing: Yes, that’s compassion. Hand over the heart and say, I wasn’t there for you, little one. I’m here for you now. The one that was hurt and the one that’s doing the hello in there is the sage, right?

[00:22:28] Linda Graf: Yes, we all have that. As I said when we started the conversation today, we come in wanting a relationship. It’s not that our parents are bad—maybe some of them are—but mostly not. They’re just doing the best they can. They didn’t have operating instructions. No one really told them, unless you’re very lucky, and it’s usually generational.

They’re doing the best they can. We come in as these beautiful little beings, and then we get plastered with stuff. There’s a wonderful story about the Golden Buddha. I think it was in Bhutan, where they had this gorgeous gold Buddha in the village. An army was coming through to take everything down, so they covered the gold Buddha with plaster, made it dirty and ugly, and it disappeared. Nobody touched it until years later when someone noticed a little shiny spot while wiping it down.

The story goes they cleaned it all off, and the Golden Buddha shone through in its brightness. I feel like that’s what happens to us as children—not because anybody did bad things to us. We’re just moving through life. Sometimes it’s your parents, sometimes it’s a nasty kid at school, a teacher on the playground, or something else. Something happens, and we start piling on the plaster.

[00:23:53] Linda Graf: What we’re talking about is relational presence. What you teach is how to start taking the plaster off so we can drop in and let our real presence shine through.

[00:24:09] Doreen Downing: Knowing that the real presence is in there is key. What you just described—taking the plaster off—is an unfolding as opposed to chipping away. All that crust needs embracing too. It needs, “Oh, thank you for protecting me.”

[00:24:42] Linda Graf: Right, absolutely. That’s so true. I love what you’re saying. I didn’t even notice it, but it is kind of like a rubbing off as opposed to—

[00:24:49] Doreen Downing: Yes, that doesn’t work.

[00:24:52] Linda Graf: Ouch. That was the compassion too. We all have it. The cool thing for me, speaking in front of people now, is that I still get nervous. It’s not like before, but I can move into enjoying it more. I still have little thoughts that pop in, like, oh my God.

[00:25:19] Doreen Downing: I do too, Linda. I do not like life. I love doing podcasts, but here I am with myself and a camera in front of me. It’s not a human being. I usually put a pair of eyes on the camera so I feel like I’m relating to somebody.

[00:25:41] Linda Graf: Oh, I love it. Doing webinars where you’re the only one and there’s no audience. I actually had stuffed animals at one time on top of my computer just to make me laugh. It was like somebody’s there.

[00:25:53] Doreen Downing: Yes, I understand. I feel like I could go on for the rest of the day having a conversation with you. Let’s come to your work with positive psychology and positive intelligence. You touched on it a little earlier about techniques, and it could be just a few minutes. Share a good technique, especially related to fear and finding your voice.

[00:26:28] Linda Graf: It’s pretty simple and very similar to what you teach. I believe the body is the gym. Any sensate experience you can have—whether it’s smell, touch, visual, or even taste—can bring your attention to the present moment.

If anyone in your audience has a cup of tea or something, put your hands on it and really feel the coolness or warmth. Rub your fingertips on it and feel the smoothness or texture. A great tactile exercise is to take two fingers and bring your attention as gently as you can to the ridges of your fingertips.

Close your eyes if you’re comfortable and really feel the texture. Take one hand, rub your fingertips against the inside of the other, and bring your attention there.

[00:27:44] Doreen Downing: That just made my moment expand. I’m always with you, but now I’m with you in this bigger moment.

[00:27:58] Linda Graf: That’s beautiful. You can do this anytime, even in a conference room. If you’re nervous about speaking, pay attention to your body. It settles you into yourself, quiets the mind, and brings you back into the body. Feel your feet on the floor.

One of my favorites is to listen for the farthest away sound you can hear, then the closest sound. If you get really quiet, you might even hear your breath.

Doreen Downing: Yes, I could hear your breath.

[00:28:52] Linda Graf: Everyone, you just heard my breath. Play with these simple things, whether it’s sound or touch, and see what it does to your system and your body.

[00:29:08] Linda Graf: It brings you into the present. People always say, be present in front of a group, and it’s like, that sounds good, but how do I do that?

[00:29:16] Doreen Downing: The how—and do it quickly, especially when your heart is beating so fast you can’t control it. I love the pattern interrupt and being able to do it in minutes, if not seconds, when you’re well-trained.

You don’t have to spend hours on a cushion. I love sitting on a cushion too, but being able to bring yourself to the here and now—being present—is where the power is.

[00:29:53] Linda Graf: What I love about this model I’m using is—I actually sat a month-long silent retreat. I don’t know if you know that.

[00:30:00] Linda Graf: When I was going through a big transition out of a long-term relationship, I had the great fortune to take the time to spend a month in silence. I had done many retreats before, but this was a big one. When I agreed, I was a little nervous. It was fabulous, and I watched all 90 of us.

[00:30:22] Linda Graf: When we completed our time together, integration was the hardest part—or the most interesting, maybe that’s better. I’ve sat lots of retreats, even the long one, and practiced meditation every day. But you can do it just as fast in two minutes. You don’t have to sit through a month-long retreat. It’s lovely and wonderful, but you don’t have to.

I still get the value out of it. That’s what’s exciting to me about the work I’m doing. People can stop in conflict, notice, stop, and choose a different response to the situation. To me, that’s the key of the work I do in relationship coaching.

[00:31:08] Doreen Downing: What I just got from you is that the stop and choosing is because you’ve developed this wider, expansive space—like I just experienced with my fingers. You have a new place from which to come from. You know there is a choice because it’s there and available since you’ve got access to it.

Linda, we’re coming to an end, and I like to always give guests an opportunity to listen to this moment as we come to a close. See what you may want to say about voice, your experience today, or what you want to leave the audience with. Listen to this “now” moment and see what wants to be said.

[00:32:07] Linda Graf: There’s this image I’ve been playing with—the oyster. The oyster has the opportunity to grow pearls, right? To me, challenges, like what drew me to Speaking Circles and finding my voice, are the grit. The grit is what makes the pearl.

If you’re feeling some grit out there, it’s the grit that makes the pearl in relationships too. When we’re feeling grit, it’s not a bad thing. It can actually be a good thing. This is why I got to meet you, Doreen, and play in this arena—I took on the grit and worked with it. I invite your audience to explore the grit and turn it into a pearl.

[00:33:00] Doreen Downing: Wonderful. Where there is fear, there is treasure. Thank you so much, Linda.

[00:33:11] Linda Graf: Thank you.