#34 From Fearful Introvert to TEDx Speaker

Find Your Voice, Change Your Life Podcast 

Podcast Host: Dr. Doreen Downing

Free Guide to Fearless Speaking: Doreen7steps.com

 

Episode #34 Todd Cherches

 

“From Fearful Introvert to TEDx Speaker”

 

(00:35) Dr. Doreen Downing:

Hi, this is Dr. Doreen Downing and I’m here your host, and I’m a psychologist and I do the Find Your Voice, Change Your Life podcast. And here on this podcast, I invite people who have somewhere in their lifetime have experienced either a reluctance or a fear about speaking up in public. And because of the people that I’ve invited, they seem to be really well-accomplished by now. And so they have a great story. They not only tell what was so difficult starting out early in life, usually, to what is so wonderful now that they have a voice and what they get to offer, what their gift is now that they found their voice. And today I’m going to introduce you to Todd Cherches, who’s a CEO and co-founder of a New York City based executive coaching firm, and it’s called Big Blue Gumball, Big Blue Gumball. Oh, wow, what a name! We’re going to have to hear a little bit about that, Todd. And he’s a three-time award winning adjunct professor of leadership at NYU and Columbia University, a member of Marshall Goldsmith’s MG-100 Coaches. Todd is a TEDx speaker and author of Visual Leadership: Leveraging the Power of Visual Thinking In Leadership and In Life. Ooh, that’s very powerful. I love reading that. A lot of these but I am getting through this, aren’t I? He’s a pioneer in the application of visual thinking to the practice of leadership. And Todd has recently been named by Thinker’s 50 as a finalist for the 2021 Distinguished Thinkers award in leadership, and is ranked number 35 on the top 50 thought leaders and influencers in the field of management. Wow, you must have really started out as something where you didn’t have a voice because now you certainly are somebody who offers this world of ours so much. And from what I’ve just read, I really want to hear more, though, where we start with what happened early on for you, Todd. I know you gave me some information, and it feels like you’ve had a journey. So, let’s go. Thanks, Todd for being here.

 

(03:14) Todd Cherches:

Sure. Thank you, Doreen. Yeah, when I read that hear that bio it’s a little bit of imposter syndrome when I think back to who I was and where I was as recently as 20 years ago. So, I’m definitely a late bloomer, always very shy as a kid like the shy studious kid, I always said I was– looking back I was a three B’s guy, a back of the room, behind the scenes, bookworm, that’s my natural default. So, in classes, I’m six foot four. And I was always one of the tallest kids in my class. But I would always try to slink down and hide myself, I was trying to sit in the back room, stand in the back row or sit in the back in classes. I was never out in front, and never raised my hand. In fact, in my youth class, I have my students speak within the first five to 10 minutes. And I say to them, you now have just all spoken more than I spoke in all my years of junior high school, high school, undergrad, and graduate school. So I never once spoke in class or got up in front of a room. A couple of times, I was forced to stand up for a couple of minutes, but I never raised my hand once. If I was called upon, that was one thing but I never would volunteer to speak up or speak out. And that continued through my early years of my career until I finally changed that. But um, very shy. I was even shy answering the phone. My mother would say, “Todd, can you answer the phone” when the phone would ring and I would run to the other rooms: “I have to go to the bathroom,” “I’m busy,” just to avoid answering the phone. I mean, that’s how shy I was. I couldn’t even speak on the phone. If I knew who it was, my grandparents or whatever, it would be fine. But the thought of picking up the phone and not knowing who it was and talking to a stranger I found really uncomfortable and intimidating. So I always tried to avoid that. And same thing with kids, around other kids I was very shy and I had my few close friends but anytime around strangers I really went into a shell and just tried to hide.

 

(05:00) Dr. Doreen Downing:

Well, that shell that you’re talking about and hiding, I think that people learn to do that pretty early in life. And it might have been your nature to be a little more introverted than to be, hey, look at me world, but what I think the problem is, is that people continue to see that as their identity. You know, yes, I’m shy. And I know that a lot of people that come to me say, “Well, I’ve always been shy.” And that ‘always been shy’ seems to be an excuse. But for you, it wasn’t an excuse, because look at you now. But I’d like to go back to when you say something like, “I don’t want to answer the phone.” What was the fear? Do you have a sense of what you were avoiding?

 

(05:47) Todd Cherches:

I would say, using FDRs, quote, “the only thing to fear was fear itself.” There was really nothing I was, I wasn’t scared of saying the wrong thing or being embarrassed, or– I had a little bit of a stutter, just a slight one, but I probably magnified it in my own mind, but I’d stutter like that when I got nervous. But there really was no reason other than I just, I never felt like– I was always a follower, as opposed to a leader as a kid. You know, quiet, polite, parents love me, because I never got into trouble. I never caused a ruckus or made noise. So, unlike some of the other kids in the neighborhood, or my parents’ friends’, kids, like “Todd’s a little angel, the perfect child” kind of thing. And I just, I would rather just sit and read and watch TV and talk to one or two people. I was never the type to, like, just go out and, you know, among a group of kids or– I played sports, I played basketball, and little league baseball, but I always felt more comfortable when I was playing than like before, or after the game when you’re just mingling around, so I always felt uncomfortable. And even to this day, when I’m around strangers, you know, people I don’t know, I prefer the activity where I feel comfortable, as opposed to that awkward time either before after. And even now, this weekend, I have a number of social events I’m going to. I’m getting already getting a lot of pre-anxious. I’ll be fine. But I always have those jitters of just, before walking into a room I literally have to kind of force myself to do it even to this day. So old, you know, childhood, or teen feelings still is there inside. I just overcome it, you know, when I have to.

 

(07:23) Dr. Doreen Downing:

Yeah, you just used a phrase. I haven’t heard it said that way. Did you say free anxiety?

 

(07:31) Todd Cherches:

No, I didn’t say, I didn’t say free. When I feel…. Pre! I said “pre-anxiety”.

 

(07:36) Dr. Doreen Downing:

Pre, P-R-E. Okay, pre-anxiety. Well, that’s, that’s fascinating. Here you’re so accomplished and yet you still have a little bit of those jitters and you’re aware of it. But it doesn’t– what I hear now is that you don’t get afraid. And so, when you said the quote from FDR, it’s like “fear of fear”. It’s like, okay, so a little bit of fear. It’s a little bit of rattling that’s going on in your body. But it doesn’t scare you anymore.

 

(08:07) Todd Cherches:

Right. It doesn’t keep me from doing things. My wife who’s been an actress for many years– now she’s more of a she’s a casting director, she’s produced off Broadway plays– but she has the same thing. She is amazing on stage, but going from backstage to onstage might as well be 100 miles because her cast members literally need to push her out there. And once she’s out there, she’s fine. I have this similar kind of thing. It’s like that behind the scenes, once I’m out there I’m fine. In fact, when I’m in a classroom or training, I am much more comfortable being in front of the room that I am taking someone else’s workshop and sitting in the class because then those old feelings come back of being, you know, in the class, or are they going to call on me? kind of thing. So, it’s interesting how some of those things stay with you. Again, I don’t let it keep me from doing things. But those feelings are still there from, you know, from 40 plus years ago.

 

(08:54) Dr. Doreen Downing:

I’m so glad you’re pointing to that as an accomplished person. And people listening to this podcast can say, “hey, that’s normal, that’s natural. It’s just the body doing its thing.” And I’ve also heard that anxiety and excitement– you’ve probably heard that– are the same kind of physiological dynamic. And so, you know, it feels like well, Todd’s excited, he’s about to step into a big role there in front of however many people and delivering his expertise.

 

(09:27) Todd Cherches:

I also learned that being an introvert is not just being shy, it’s about where your energy comes from, and it took me a while to learn more about introversion and extroversion. So, I enjoy being around other people. But if I have to do it for too long, it drains my energy and I need to like, get some solitary time. So I always say, like, if I had to choose, I’d prefer to spend 70% of my time alone writing, researching, designing, all that kind of stuff, and maybe 30% in with other people. I have friends who are the exact opposite: if they’re not around other people 90% of the time they jump, they’re jumping out of their skin. So, I think we’re just all different. So, it’s about where our energy comes from, and where our comfort level is.

 

(10:08) Dr. Doreen Downing:

Well, what you just pointed to also is having insight and awareness of who you are. And that way you can keep yourself more balanced and make the– if you’re going to be speaking in front of people, a lot easier for yourself if you don’t overdo it, or if you under do it either way, it sounds like

 

(10:28) Todd Cherches:

Yeah, in fact, I’ve done– in the last three days, I’ve done four podcast interviews, done two webinars yesterday, including one for 2000 people globally, and I did a two hour session today. So, after our podcast, I’m shutting down for the weekend (although I have some social events to go to). But it was like one of those weeks where I was out and around other people a lot, so I had to keep my energy up and, and my… you know, when I’m doing it I’m fine. But afterwards, sometimes just need to collapse. And… we just got a puppy here, I have to put her on the ground… this is Lucy, our puppy, who just turned one. So, she’s definitely a source of stress release, and a nice break in between meetings and everything, just to spend some time with her. She’s on the floor now.

 

(11:13) Dr. Doreen Downing:

Yes, well, for those who are listening, Todd just introduced us to–what is her name?

 

(11:19) Todd Cherches:

Lucy. She’s a little Havanese one year old puppy.

 

(11:22) Dr. Doreen Downing:

Yes. Oh, boy. She’s adorable. How fun. How fun. Yeah, well, you also are pointing to, before we get into the beginning, the aha moment? Or was it over a number of months or years where you helped yourself find your voice. But first, I’d like to just go back a little bit in terms of, where you were, where were you on the birth order?

 

(11:45) Todd Cherches:

I’m the oldest of two.

 

(11:50) Dr. Doreen Downing:

And did your sibling have a different kind of personality?

 

(11:54) Todd Cherches:

Yeah, he was definitely more extroverted and more comfortable around other people. He still is to this day, he could talk to anyone. So my father was very much an extrovert, he would talk to anyone and show general, you know, like Dale Carnegie would say, “be more interested than interesting.” So, he was always interested in talking to people. And, you know, for me, you know, I always thought, you know, you’re, when you’re a kid, you get embarrassed by your parents a lot of the time. So, my father would say, “Todd, come over here and meet so and so.” And I was like, “No, I don’t feel like meeting one more person.” So my father wanted to meet everyone, he wouldn’t leave a party until he met and talked to everyone. For me, I was always the last one to get somewhere and the first one to leave. So again, part of it is genetics. Part of it is, you know, just who we are and how we are as people, but I was always a little in awe and envious of people who are so comfortable around other people that they could just make conversation with anyone.

 

(12:49) Dr. Doreen Downing:

What a sandwich between your father and your brother.

 

(12:54) Todd Cherches:

Yeah. And my mother was somewhere in the middle. My mother was somewhere where she was, you know, more of a… probably introvert, but she was she was comfortable around other people too. But a couple of stories, one of them I tell in my in my book, my Seinfeld story called No Shirt for You. I went to a taping of Seinfeld when I first moved to LA, and I was sitting in the audience and in between scenes, they draw trivia questions, and you could win a shirt if you get the right answer. So, they ask the question, what is Elaine’s middle name? Elaine Bennis– was is her middle name? And I was obsessed with Seinfeld. So, I knew it was Marie. And yet, I couldn’t say it. I couldn’t raise my hand and or shout it out. So, people in the audience who didn’t know the answer– they were just yelling out the wrong answer. And I knew the right answer and I didn’t have the courage and confidence just to say, it was like, was I scared of being wrong in front of strangers? Like what was my reason for holding back? And time ran out. No one got it. He said it was Marie, and no one got the t shirt. So, to this day, that’s my Seinfeld t shirt story to this day. You know, what held me back from just yelling out? I knew it was– I was 99% sure I had the right answer. And yet, I didn’t have the confidence and the courage to shout it out amongst a group of strangers. So that was just one example of how even in my early 30s, I still had that fear of speaking out in front of a group.

 

(14:12) Dr. Doreen Downing:

I like the two words you just used, courage and confidence, and courage to just shout out the name. And I think that if you had, it seems like all eyes would be on you. You’d have to go up to the front of the room and gather your gift and it’s something just, neurologically the body when it doesn’t want to get up in front of people just won’t let you Yeah, there’s a way, there’s a madness to– these are systems that say “no, don’t go.” You said you had another…

 

(14:47) Todd Cherches:

We feel like that in retrospect, but in the moment, I mean, it’s just like, what? That was so stupid. Why didn’t I just shout it out? I had nothing to lose and everything to gain and yet they still couldn’t push myself to do it.

 

(14:57) Dr. Doreen Downing:

Well, you know, that’s what I hear a lot from people where the frontal brain says, “well, there isn’t anything to be afraid of.” But the back brain– because the neurologist have really found that they are different wiring systems, you’ve might have already explored that and know that– but the frontal and the back part of the brains, just, the anxiety that shows up in the back is, you can’t control it with your mind. Sometimes

 

(15:23) Todd Cherches:

Yea, that’s the flight, fight, or fear. Right? The amygdala, kind of?

 

(15:28) Dr. Doreen Downing:

Yes, the amygdala. Yes, yeah. You’re hijacked by the amygdala, people I work with say. But you said you had another story!

 

(15:36) Todd Cherches:

Yeah, well, another time when I first moved out to LA, my parents dropped me… First of all, that was the hardest thing I’ve ever done was to pack my bags in New York and move out to LA without any contacts, no job, no money. I just was pursuing my dream of working in the TV industry, which is something I wanted to do for a long time. So that was really hard to move all the way across country. And so, my parents dropped me off at JFK Airport. I’m walking onto the plane and there’s a gentleman blocking the aisle in first class. And my dream was to work for NBC, I was obsessed with NBC. And who was this person? It was Grant Tinker, the CEO of NBC. So, I’m on the plane moving out to LA and the CEO of NBC is on the plane in first class. So, the whole flight I was sitting there and coach all the way in the back near the bathrooms saying should I talk to him? Should I not talk to him. So I kept going up to the curtain and going back to my seat, I did that for like four hours. And then finally, we’re about an hour before landing. I said, If I don’t do this, I’m gonna kick myself for the rest of my life. You don’t have an opportunity like this too often. So I don’t know what gave me the courage and the confidence but I forced myself to walk through that first class curtain. I said, “Excuse me, Mr. Tinker,” and I just started rambling. I said, “I was an intern at NBC last year, my dream was to work in television, I love NBC, can I talk to you for a second? Do you have any advice for me?” And he actually got up from his aisle seat not to hit me, but to move over to the window seat and he said, “Sure. Have a seat.” And he said, “you want something to drink?” He got me a Diet Coke from the flight attendant. So, there I am. I’m 24 years old, sitting in first class with the CEO of NBC. And it’s like, and he was so nice. He gave me some advice. He gave me his card and he said, “Call my secretary and she’ll set up some meetings for you.” He’s like, “I probably won’t be able to talk to you but good luck.” So just the fact—there’s so many leadership lessons there. One, that he was so generous to do that, and two, the fact that I don’t know how or what gave me the confidence to do it but I forced myself to take that risk. Now, I didn’t get a job at NBC. But I got a number of interviews that kind of led to other things. So, and it gave me, it confirmed that I was doing the right thing. And so just again, that was one story of pushing myself well out of my comfort zone. And I’m still thinking about that. And his, you know, his, so now when people reach out to me, “can I pick your brain, I’d like to talk to you?”, I always flash back on my Grant Tinker story, and try to be the kind of leader that he was: generous and empathetic and caring.

 

(17:57) Dr. Doreen Downing:

Yeah, I think that’s one lesson people can take from listening to you today. But also, that whole image, I can see it on a TV program of a curtain and the young boy in the back and, you know, four or five times– dozen times– going up to the curtain, turning around and then, it’s so, it’s such a metaphor, you know, going through the threshold, past the curtain to what’s behind the curtain. And thank you, that seems to be something that people can take with him today about how to just move yourself past the curtain.

 

18:35

It’s always you know, Dale Carnegie wrote a book called How to Win Friends and Influence People. Another one of his books was called How to Stop Worrying and Start Living. And one of his mantras is “think about’ what’s the worst that can happen… Envision the worst happening.’ Think about ‘what are the odds of the worst happening, it’s very rare that the worst happens, and then you work from there.’ Right? So, the worst thing that happens is someone says no, and you feel rejected for a minute. But think about you know, risk-reward, what you can gain versus that moment of rejection that you might face. So, it’s like, I’m always thinking that even to this day, what’s the worst that could happen if you try something? My mother used to say that with like trying new foods. “Try it. The worst thing that happens is you hate it and you spit it out into a napkin, right? But you may actually like it. So just having that, you know, I was non– I was very risk averse. So just trying things, whether it was meeting new people or trying new things, was always pushing myself out of my comfort zone. But I was channeling my mother saying, the worst thing happens is you hate it, you spit it out, whatever. But, you know, so if your motto is “I never tried anything I haven’t tried before.”, it’s a little limiting, right? So, we need to kind of open up the world of possibilities.

 

(19:44) Dr. Doreen Downing:

And risk averse, I think that’s, partly that’s gonna play today with people who are afraid of speaking is that they’re afraid to take that risk and they would be calling themselves risk aversive and your suggestion of ‘what’s the worst thing that could happen’, facing that– maybe making a list of those worst things that can happen and maybe even having strategies? So if this happens, then what? Good. Well, I get that you walked through that curtain and you faced it, it actually turned out to be a good story. But was there– how did you find? I mean, what’s the process of finding your voice would you say?

 

(20:28) Todd Cherches:

Yeah, I mean, one of the things I say to people because I teach leadership, and I do presentation skills, training, and coaching, and part of it is envisioning what it’s like to be up there on stage. So, I did my TED talk a couple of years ago, actually got a red bathmat, and I would practice on that red bathmat, just to envision myself standing on the red circular rug that they have for TED talks, just so, so you want to picture yourself doing that. So that’s part of the visual thinking approach is actually envisioning yourself in a certain situation, and picturing an ideal outcome. But in terms of public speaking, it took me many years. I took a job after my 10 years in LA I moved back to New York, I took a job with a major training company, and I was in charge of designing leadership programs, but I never delivered them, they were always delivered by like, you know, the trainers. So, one time we were doing a leadership training program for 12 CEOs in Hilton Head, South Carolina. I got there the day before to set up and everything else. And the morning of the three-day workshop, I got a call, a message from the trainer saying that he got sick, he missed his flight the night before, and wouldn’t be there till the next day, or the end of that day. So, I called my boss back in New York. And I said, “What do I do, I have this group of 12 CEOs?” And he said, “Well, we have two choices, we refund everyone’s money and it’s completely embarrassing. And it’s going to cost us hundreds of 1000s of dollars, or you have to do it.” And I was like, I almost fainted on the phone right there. I was like, “What, I have to do it?” He’s like, “What’s the problem? You know the content, just get up there and do it.” And I did know the content because I designed it. But I was terrified of public speaking and terrible at public speaking. And he expected me to get up in front of a group of 12 CEOs to train them and leadership. I’m like, Are you crazy? But you know, I got up there that morning. I told them the situation. And one of the CEOs said, “what are we going to do to help our friend Todd here get through this day?” And it was such a relief, talk about leadership again. And what happened was I did the workshop they knew, because my boss said, “don’t let them know that you’re not the trainer.” But to me that was insincere and genuine. And that’s just, it never would have worked. So, I did the exact opposite of what he told me to do. I told them the situation. And they basically got me through that day. And the irony of, at the end of that day, I realized I wasn’t that bad at it. And I actually didn’t hate it. And actually, when I found out the trainer was there, and would be there the next day, I actually felt a little bad because I actually wanted to do the second day at that point. So again, had I not been pushed off the end of the diving board into the water I never would’ve raised my hand and voluntarily done that. But given no other choice, I stepped up. And you know, I didn’t do too bad. So that was the first time I ever actually spoke in public. And that’s what I do today. But that was my first time dipping my toe into that water.

 

(23:13) Dr. Doreen Downing:

Oh, it was more than dipping, it was diving.

 

(23:18) Todd Cherches:

It was, it was a lunge off the high diving board.

 

(23:20) Dr. Doreen Downing:

It was a plunge for sure. Well, a couple of things that you said today I get is that for both of the incidences, it feels like the spontaneity was important in you like just going past the curtain: “Hello, Mister, I’m an intern. Can we have a chat?” Or just being thrown: “Hello, folks. I this is who I am.” So, a couple of things, you being naturally who you are, and admitting that admitting that I’m not. You didn’t take on the imposter role. You didn’t, “Hey, I’m here to be your trainer today. And boy do I know this stuff.” But in all so far, it feels like what I’m taking with me today is your ability to be spontaneous and in the moment is one of your gifts.

 

(24:12) Todd Cherches:

That’s a great point. I hadn’t thought about that before. Yeah, it’s kind of like, if you have to think about, if you overthink something, you get that over analysis paralysis, and you never do it. So you’re 100% right that if I wasn’t thrown into those situations and didn’t have time—If I had too much time to think about I probably wouldn’t have done it. So it really was. I have one other situation. A few years later, after 911 I was not working and New York was kind of in a depression. I needed something to get out of the house and do something productive. So, I signed up for a public speaking course. And it was actually a Dale Carnegie training course. And I went to a free event and then I went to the full program. And at the break of day one I said this is not for me. I was so– I didn’t love the instructor. I was terrified because every I was going to speak after the break. So, after the break, before the break, I actually took my bag and my coat, and I was going to leave. I actually took the elevator down to the lobby, and I call this, you know, go in or go home, and I was gonna go home, but then I had to use the restroom. So, I went back up to that floor, I used the restroom, they were calling everyone back into the room, they shut the door. I looked at that little porthole, and I said, Should I, if I go home, I’m just gonna go home and watch TV. I wasn’t dating anyone at the time, I was single. I was like, I’m just gonna go home and watch TV. If I go back in, what what’s the worst that can happen? I can always leave if I have to, you know, before I speak. Anyway, I forced myself to go in. And the rest was history. Not only did I speak, but I became a class coach. I became a certified Dale Carnegie trainer a year later. That’s what launched my whole leadership training career. And that’s what led to my doing management leadership training, becoming the head of leadership development for a Wall Street company, led to my teaching at NYU and Columbia. So just that one– picture me looking at porthole saying do I go in? Or do I go home, and I went in. And that changed everything. Because I often think back on it’s like Robert Frost poem, The Road Not Taken, you know, those two roads diverging in a yellow one. You pick one path and you think, what would have happened if I went down the other path? If I got home that day, I probably wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing today. Because everything that followed led literally from like going back into that room and becoming trained and developing the skills and the confidence to do public speaking. So that’s my story of how, what led me down to the path of what I do today.

 

(26:30) Dr. Doreen Downing:

Oh, there you go again, another phrase, it sounds like a title of a book, go home or go in.

 

(26:38) Todd Cherches:

Yeah.

 

(26:39) Dr. Doreen Downing:

Well, thank you, I can see why you do use visual thinking in your work because it seems like what you’re saying is if you overthink at something then it can stop you. And that’s what I’m hoping listeners will get today is something more about that moment, the moments that you’ve pointed to today just were that, that thrust into the next now that you don’t know what’s going to happen. It’s not like you, you had a goal. It’s just like, I’m just gonna step. And I think that’s what I am taking with me today also is, just move yourself from the back of the plane to the front of the plane, from outside the door to inside the room. And there you go. Todd, this is wonderful. Any last words you’d like to say? And I for sure want to give people some way to get ahold of you. So those would be something that I’d like?

 

(27:34) Todd Cherches:

Well, first of all, you do a nice job connecting the dots between those three stories because it really is like if you overthink things, it’s easy to not do it. But if you just push yourself and, you know, our comfort, I always call it ‘going from the comfort zone to the zone of the unknown’, you don’t know what’s going to happen in a bad way, but also in a good way. Right? So, think about all your successes, all the times that you took a leap or took a risk or took a chance or spoke to someone. You know, just meeting people like there’s the saying that “all our friends were strangers at one point”, right? So, at some point, you have to had that initial conversation, you have to, you know, put yourself out there. So that’s what I’d say is, think about the worst that could happen, just as Dale Carnegie did, realize the worst very rarely happens. But think about the best that could happen. And you just never know what might happen.

 

(28:18) Dr. Doreen Downing:

How do people find you, Todd?

 

(28:21) Todd Cherches:

The two best ways is go to my website,TODDCHERCHES.COM and check out my TED Talk, which is right there on the homepage If you want to see how my TED Talk came out of all of the stories I told today, and also feel free to link in with me just say you saw me on Doreen’s show and send me a note and connect with me on LinkedIn and happy to continue the conversation with me.

 

(28:42) Dr. Doreen Downing:

Thank you so much.

 

(28:44) Todd Cherches:

Thank you for having me, Doreen.